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Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

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Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#61

Post by myself248 »

VikingCoder wrote: post #43

I'm sad that some native people are upset. I wish it was easier to build things like this off of the Earth, in space or on the Moon or Mars, etc.

But space is sacred!

To the group of native-space-beings I just made up and claim to be a member of.

Launching things into space violates our sovereignty. It tramples our sacred orbits, and makes a mockery of our proud heritage.

We shall protest all launches, all progress, all research, and especially anything that might make money or improve anyone's life in even the tiniest way. We'll feed off the publicity, and the habit of some in the media to represent even our whack-ass views as being co-equal and legitimate right alongside everyone else.

And when people claim we made it all up, we'll only gather the sympathy of other whackaloons who've been accused of the same. It will only make us stronger.

We shall call ourselves the Righteous Indig Nation.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#62

Post by 8bitsrule »

ergothus wrote: post #25
rtkwe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom Is there actually any legally recognized sovereignty for Hawaii or native Hawaiians? Tried doing a quick search but it all came back with an ongoing sovereignty movement but nothing similar to the Native American tribes.

My understanding (based on visiting hawaii as a tourist and not much else) is that no, there's not a US-legally recognized sovereignty, but there is a step back from: * "They voluntarily joined the US" language * the repression of culture - in particular but not limited to language, which was apparently ruthlessly quashed for a long while and is enjoying a lot more respect today, relatively speaking. In a courtroom I…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Ha...

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#63

Post by 8bitsrule »

VikingCoder wrote: post #43

I'm sad that some native people are upset. I wish it was easier to build things like this off of the Earth, in space or on the Moon or Mars, etc.

In recent decades, many large and important observatories have been constructed in the desert of northern Chile ... pretty much uncontested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Astronomical_observat...

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#64

Post by PopePompous »

8bitsrule wrote: post #63
VikingCoder wrote: post #43

I'm sad that some native people are upset. I wish it was easier to build things like this off of the Earth, in space or on the Moon or Mars, etc.

In recent decades, many large and important observatories have been constructed in the desert of northern Chile ... pretty much uncontested. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Astronomical_observat...

There is something to be said for having at least one 30 meter class telescope in the Northern hemisphere. There are parts of the sky which are never visible from Chile.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#65

Post by PopePompous »

idoescompooters wrote: post #52
ergothus wrote: post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

I currently work for one of the big agencies behind astronomical observing, and my boss was telling me today (an hour before I show him this article) about the unnecessary amount of environmental hurdles this project has gone through. And he mentioned that during the protests that occurred at the construction site, equipment was actually vandalized.

Yes, and fiber optic cables to the summit were cut.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#66

Post by rootoor »

adrr wrote: post #60
jmisavage wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a rich history of corporations and the us government screwing over Hawaiians. The monarchy was overthrown by a group of businessmen and sugar planters after they forced Queen Liliuokalani to abdicate. Two years later it became a US territory against the wishes of the natives. Then the sugar industry help keep it a territory for 60 years because they could import cheap foreign labor.

History of Hawaii is all about using force to take land from the population. First settler where from the Marquesas Islands and they were conquered by the Tahitians.

What’s your point?

Are you saying that it doesn’t matter that sovergty was taken violently from the Hawaiians because their ancestors conquered the original inhabitants hundreds of years ago?

Would it be fair if Russia came in and took Hawaii from the US because the “History of Hawaii is all about using force to take land from the population”?

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#67

Post by vatueil »

pastor_elm wrote: post #7
NotAmazin wrote: post #4

>Thirty Meter astronomers had said if they didn’t get a green light to build on Mauna Kea, they would build it on La Palma in the Canary Islands, off Africa. Good for them

Mauna Kea is 6000 ft higher though.

La Palma's air quality is also not as good as Mauna Kea's (more dust blowing over from the Sahara), if I recall correctly. It may be the second best site in the northern hemisphere, but it's significantly behind the top choice.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#68

Post by hokuula »

ergothus wrote: post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

Here is the link to the actual opinion http://www.courts.state.hi.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/SCO...

The HSC held that Native Hawaiian rights would not be substantially impacted by the TMT, which was an issue in the administrative hearing that took place from 2016-2017, and what was being appealed in this HSC case.

What was procedural was the previous administrative hearing was ruled invalid because BLNR granted the permit before convening the hearing, so those that wanted to voice their grievances weren't given a real opportunity to. HSC said that violated due process and remanded the case for a second administrative hearing. It is this second hearing, regarding the TMT building permit, that this court case deals with.

The judge in the administrative hearing, a retired state judge, found that there would be no substantial impacts to natural resources, most importantly water resources, but also cultural and archaeological resources. The University of Hawaii brought in a hydrologist with expertise in local (Big Island) water resources to demonstrate why and the hearing officer (the administrative judge) accepted that based on the hydrologists scientific expertise in local water issues. It was then found to be a valid conclusion when appealed to the HSC.

If you want to read the conclusion of the hearing officer in the administrative hearing, her findings of fact and conclusions of law can be read here https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/mk/files/2017/07/783-Hearing-Officer... (long: 305 pages). This was what BLNR used to grant the permit. And as a matter of it being so thorough and as a matter of everyone being a chance to voice their opinion, the HSC upheld the permit and the conclusions of the hearing officer.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#69

Post by codezero »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #37
codezero wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that since it didn't voluntarily surrender its sovereignty, some might feel it should still have it, but I don't know too much about the subject, so maybe it's time for me to read up a bit.

I was in Kona for the Iron Man Worlds just a couple of weeks ago. We spent some time up and down the west coast there. And for what it's worth I saw more Kingdom of Hawaii flags than any other. On a side note I could move there tomorrow and take up surfing. So anybody willing to have a remote engineer working on Hawaii time just let me know...

Fwiw it’s probably not as beautiful but for the continental US I recommend San Diego for remote eng and surfing. There’s a bit less localism and it’s at least 70% as beautiful and probably 200% more convenient :)

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#70

Post by duxup »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #47
duxup wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably this is somewhat similar to other native american tribes where there are treaties and legal structures that allow them to make their case under that name / formalized what it means today?

No, not really. The entire Hawaiian archipelago was annexed as US territory. There was no comparable "nation status" as exists on native American reservations today.

I understand there are no reservations, just wondering if there is some legal status.
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