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United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

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Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#61

Post by FireBeyond »

recursive wrote: post #57
kazinator wrote: post #6

Passengers who save hundreds of dollars should get a credit boost for their demonstration of financial savvy. I'd sooner give a loan to that person than some reckless spender.

Credit isn't a measure of financial savvy. It's a measure of likelihood to repay debts. It may be financially savvy to strategically default, putting the two in conflict.

Precisely. In many ways it is better to steadily use a card (while being mindful of utilization ratios) and pay it than it is to carry a zero balance.

The credit system might have been initially about debt repayment, but there are several measures in store regarding "how valuable / revenue-generating is a customer".

And at times, these two principles may be in harmony, and at others, not so much.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#62

Post by mchannon »

Someone1234 wrote: post #24
mchannon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Ahh yes, the "known false debts act of 1789". The fact is corporations have throngs of willing stooges who are happy to perjure themselves in trial and assert that the debts weren't false at all. Who's a judge and jury going to believe? The scammer who cheated the poor impoverished airline out of its money, or the well-dressed st…

> Ahh yes, the "known false debts act of 1789". Fair Credit Reporting Act of 1970: > Your creditor must not supply information to a CRA that it knows (or should know) is inaccurate. That includes: > - reporting a debt as charged off when you settled it or paid it in full > - misstating the balance due > - reporting late payments when you paid timely > - listing you as a debtor on an account when you were only the aut…

If United Airlines decided to assess what they later define as the fair market price of the tickets thrown away, none of these bullet points would apply.

If you rent a car or motel room and you smoke in it, for example, they can charge you a fee. Keep your rental truck an extra day, they can charge you a fee. If you rent a Uber or Lyft and puke in it, for example, they can charge you a fee.

The FCRA is completely irrelevant to the topic here, because it's inapplicable to the above examples and United would argue they are similarly not violating it.

I wish this forum would allow people the option to disagree with an argument without censoring it. I respect (and even eagerly await) that others might disagree with my opinions, but that deserves a downvote less than an off-topic or rude post.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#63

Post by otterley »

cft wrote: post #60
otterley wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.) The elements of common law civil fraud are as follows: 1. Somebody intentionally misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person ("I am traveling to ILM from SFO" but in fact is going to IAD); 2. The other person relies upon the misrepresentation (United prices the fare as though the passenger were going to ILM instead of IA…

If I order a meal at McDonald's and don't eat the fries, is that fraud, because the cost of a burger plus soda separately maybe more than the meal with a burger, soda and the fries?

Technically yes, but the injury is de minimis so McDonald's isn't likely to demand recompense in this situation.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#64

Post by kazinator »

otterley wrote: post #49
Someone1234 wrote: post #7

I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Plus they're outright wrong that it constitutes "fraud," if for no other reason than the person skipping additional legs didn't profit from it, instead they simply limited UA's ability to further profit off of their travel. If this was "fraud" then any other airline discount or saving would be too. Shop around for the cheapest pric…

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.) The elements of common law civil fraud are as follows: 1. Somebody intentionally misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person ("I am traveling to ILM from SFO" but in fact is going to IAD); 2. The other person relies upon the misrepresentation (United prices the fare as though the passenger were going to ILM instead of IA…

Let's see how far can we take this ridiculous bullshit. If some business discriminates against blacks, is it fraud to intentionally misrepresent oneself as white?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#65

Post by Someone1234 »

otterley wrote: post #49
Someone1234 wrote: post #7

I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Plus they're outright wrong that it constitutes "fraud," if for no other reason than the person skipping additional legs didn't profit from it, instead they simply limited UA's ability to further profit off of their travel. If this was "fraud" then any other airline discount or saving would be too. Shop around for the cheapest pric…

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.) The elements of common law civil fraud are as follows: 1. Somebody intentionally misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person ("I am traveling to ILM from SFO" but in fact is going to IAD); 2. The other person relies upon the misrepresentation (United prices the fare as though the passenger were going to ILM instead of IA…

Your argument fails hard at point #1. A ticket buyer, through merely the act of purchasing a ticket, isn't making a material representation.

You should have argued contract law. That's perhaps a winning argument. Civil Fraud isn't because you'd have to argue that the simple act of clicking a "buy" button on a web-site is akin to a representation, and by extension a misrepresenting, an argument which you'd never win.

The fact your example ("I am traveling to ILM from SFO") literally never would be spoken or written, just inferred, should have been a clue. You've constructed that example-misrepresentation from nothing more than making a purchase, it doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#66

Post by cft »

otterley wrote: post #63
cft wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I order a meal at McDonald's and don't eat the fries, is that fraud, because the cost of a burger plus soda separately maybe more than the meal with a burger, soda and the fries?

Technically yes, but the injury is de minimis so McDonald's isn't likely to demand recompense in this situation.

What if I habitually don't like fries? Say I have done it 2000 times?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#67

Post by kazinator »

otterley wrote: post #63
cft wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I order a meal at McDonald's and don't eat the fries, is that fraud, because the cost of a burger plus soda separately maybe more than the meal with a burger, soda and the fries?

Technically yes, but the injury is de minimis so McDonald's isn't likely to demand recompense in this situation.

What would the recompense be? They hold you hostage until you eat all the fucking fries they paid you to eat?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#68

Post by dragonwriter »

otterley wrote: post #49
Someone1234 wrote: post #7

I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Plus they're outright wrong that it constitutes "fraud," if for no other reason than the person skipping additional legs didn't profit from it, instead they simply limited UA's ability to further profit off of their travel. If this was "fraud" then any other airline discount or saving would be too. Shop around for the cheapest pric…

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.) The elements of common law civil fraud are as follows: 1. Somebody intentionally misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person ("I am traveling to ILM from SFO" but in fact is going to IAD); 2. The other person relies upon the misrepresentation (United prices the fare as though the passenger were going to ILM instead of IA…

Purchasing a good or service with multiple components is not, in and of itself, a representation to the seller of intent to use all the components.

Now, there could be something United has inserted in the purchase flow of all multileg tickets which assures that the purchaser makes a representation of intent to use every leg, though I've never seen anything like that when purchasing tickets (and a contract of adhesion that United writes that most purchasers will not read, while it may succeed as a contract, probably won't be seen as such a representation for fraud purposes, AFAICT.)

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#69

Post by Someone1234 »

mchannon wrote: post #62
Someone1234 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ahh yes, the "known false debts act of 1789". Fair Credit Reporting Act of 1970: > Your creditor must not supply information to a CRA that it knows (or should know) is inaccurate. That includes: > - reporting a debt as charged off when you settled it or paid it in full > - misstating the balance due > - reporting late payments when you paid timely > - listing you as a debtor on an account when you were only the aut…

If United Airlines decided to assess what they later define as the fair market price of the tickets thrown away, none of these bullet points would apply. If you rent a car or motel room and you smoke in it, for example, they can charge you a fee. Keep your rental truck an extra day, they can charge you a fee. If you rent a Uber or Lyft and puke in it, for example, they can charge you a fee. The FCRA is completely irr…

> The FCRA is completely irrelevant to the topic here, because it's inapplicable to the above examples and United would argue they are similarly not violating it.

Nobody said they were violating it. The topic was that they would be violating it if they submitted their fictional debts to a credit rating agency or to a collections agent. Therefore they're never going to make good on their threats, because UA knows this.

Plus you're using bad examples, since in all the examples those companies can show financial harm, and are recouping costs. In UA's case their only "harm" is that they made less profit than they would have liked.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#70

Post by dragonwriter »

otterley wrote: post #63
cft wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I order a meal at McDonald's and don't eat the fries, is that fraud, because the cost of a burger plus soda separately maybe more than the meal with a burger, soda and the fries?

Technically yes, but the injury is de minimis so McDonald's isn't likely to demand recompense in this situation.

No, because you did not make, and McDonald's did not rely on, any representation of your intent to eat the fries.
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