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US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

bbc.com

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Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#61

Post by lifeformed »

function_seven wrote: post #55
vkou wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be, but if the program didn't exist, our economic system would not have allocated their labour to productive ends.

How do you know that? If the economy had an extra trillion dollars to allocate, there would be a massive number of alternative activities these workers would have had available. Either the tax money would have been collected anyway, and spent somewhere. Or the tax money would not have been collected and it would have been "naturally" allocated by the population.

Well in the worst case, we can just have the gov't allocate it like they did here. Just have it go to building infrastructure or something. Repair our old bridges and roadways. Or maybe fund some schools. Or at least put build something cool and shiny for scientific research? Like fusion or space travel or particle accelerators.

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#62

Post by arcbyte »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56
maxander wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those skilled workers could have been building something useful , however. The waste of their time and skill is indeed burning resources, in an even more concrete sense than setting money on fire.

> those skilled workers could have been building something useful I wouldn't say the F-35 is useless . It contains a breathtaking integration of advanced technologies. There are benefits to that R&D. It's also an incredibly capable platform–the principle complaint is it's too capable, that we could have gotten more bang for our bucks with more less-capable planes.

> I wouldn't say the F-35 is useless.

You're right. After 28 years and $1 trillion it FINALLY delivered a single bomb in Afghanistan two weeks ago.

Not totally useless.

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#63

Post by phillipcarter »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56
maxander wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those skilled workers could have been building something useful , however. The waste of their time and skill is indeed burning resources, in an even more concrete sense than setting money on fire.

> those skilled workers could have been building something useful I wouldn't say the F-35 is useless . It contains a breathtaking integration of advanced technologies. There are benefits to that R&D. It's also an incredibly capable platform–the principle complaint is it's too capable, that we could have gotten more bang for our bucks with more less-capable planes.

If it were pitched as R&D then sure, that's fine.

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#64

Post by mrbonner »

kibwen wrote: post #26

Over a trillion dollars over 28 years. There are about 250 million U.S. taxpayers. That's $150 out of the pocket of every single taxpayer, every year, just to cover the cost of this one monumentally embarrassing failure. If you're a U.S. citizen born after 1974, you've been setting fire to this money annually for your entire adult life. No value has been provided other than as a government subsidy to military contrac…

How do you ratify the hidden benefits of advanced researches going along with the aircraft? Have you seen the flight helmet with integrated HUD? I think it is out of this world. And it is just one of the many advanced technologies created in the process. Saying this is a waste of money is akin to say NASA mission is a waste of money.

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#65

Post by ThetaOneOne »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56
maxander wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those skilled workers could have been building something useful , however. The waste of their time and skill is indeed burning resources, in an even more concrete sense than setting money on fire.

> those skilled workers could have been building something useful I wouldn't say the F-35 is useless . It contains a breathtaking integration of advanced technologies. There are benefits to that R&D. It's also an incredibly capable platform–the principle complaint is it's too capable, that we could have gotten more bang for our bucks with more less-capable planes.

You’re not wrong but the entire point here is efficiency. I have no doubt that allocated with the right teams we could inovate more with 500 million dollars. Or .5% of this project’s cost.

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#67

Post by bborud »

starpilot wrote: post #38
3rdAccount wrote: post #21

Does anybody in the industry know why there was a push to move away from specific role planes that excel in one area to ones that can do any area decently? I know in theory that there would be savings having one platform, but making one jet modular for 3 different roles is seeming to be more difficult than just designing 3 different jets. It can't beat the EuroFighter in a dog fight and can't match the stealth bomber…

Because of the theoretical cost savings, as you mention. The JSF was aggressively fashioned toward futuristic notions of distance warfare. Missiles today have phenomenal performance, versus Vietnam era seekers that would fly into the sun. This might have been premature with the unexpected turn into asymmetric warfare. Also, any internet discussion on the A-10 (or SR-71, or Concorde) devolves into uninformed fanboyism…

Can you blame them? I mean come on, it is called a Warthog, it looks like one and has the unexpectedly unpleasant personality of one. Adorable :)

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#68

Post by craftyguy »

stcredzero wrote: post #23
craftyguy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the US won't formally recognize Taiwan, they are, according to the US government, already part of China so I guess we apparently don't need that 'big chunk' of our airpower.

If the US loses Taiwan as a potential staging area, geopolitics all around the South China Sea would change significantly. Basically, every country adjacent to the South China Sea would lose a big chunk of their autonomy.

Then perhaps they should recognize Taiwan and pledge to protect them. This current strategy of appeasement will only work for so long, airpower or not.

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#69

Post by Pica_soO »

The problem is not bad engineering- its bad project management. As in, project management that was unable to stand up to feature creep and additional demands - saying no.

We in germany have an airport that is in a similar state of affairs, due to late additional wishes. Huge projects need waterfall, else..

Re: US military grounds entire fleet of F-35 jets

#70

Post by dragonwriter »

nkantar wrote: post #5

I haven't been paying any specific attention to F-35 news, but I can only ever recall reading negative press. I know this particular project has been extra troubled, but is that the norm for new military vessels/vehicles?

It's the norm for new instances of categories which are nearing the end of their viability because costs of protecting them against the current threat environment dwarfs utility; the F-35 also fell victim to a flawed strategy to mitigate the costs inherent to that situation by a common project for many different roles.
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