Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#61

Post by gambiting » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

tedeh wrote: post #19

josu wrote: post #10

There is a long list of countries that decided to ban fossil fuel burning cars in the upcoming years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_foss... Personally, I don't think the ban will ever be enforced. It will create the right incentives and most car sales will be electric, but there will still be fossil fuel burning car sales.

Enforcing it is going to be quite simple. The "DMV" or equivalent will have a very hard time explaining why they are still giving out license plates for new vehicles that are not electric if the ban is made law.

As I explained elsewhere - hybrids are exempt. And all current manufacturers can make all of their models into some extremely mild hybrids just to get around the ban. So expect to see a lot of models with 1bhp electric motors just to classify as hybrids coming out soon. And cars made before the ban will obviously be still allowed, so there's no issues there.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#62

Post by daveFNbuck » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

martin_bech wrote: post #59

lucideer wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a link to the "climate panel's" recommendations that increase the Tesla price? I can't find any specific recommendations with actual numbers, only general stuff on suggested areas for inventivising BEVs.

The idea is that EVs are fully taxed the danish 150% car tax (on top og the danish 25% sales tax) but get a discount of about 50.000 DKK or just under 8.000USD.. For a base Tesla Model S, that would mean a tax of about 120.000 USD..

What's the current tax on a base Tesla Model S?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#63

Post by stephengillie » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #31

gambiting wrote: post #3

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

> 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, Other people have talked about this, but I'm wondering if the change to having electric drive motors and an engine just for generating electricity is more efficient and easier on the engine. (regenerative breaking aside)

This is how hybrids work at low speeds. They use 2 motor/generators - 1 to push the wheels, and the other to refill the batteries.

Most hybrids use a slightly different engine, which is more efficient but generates less force. The hybrid transmission can add torque when accelerating or going uphill.

The engine must get less wear. My Camry Hybrid only needs an oil change every edit: 10,000 miles.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#64

Post by floatrock » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #31

gambiting wrote: post #3

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

> 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, Other people have talked about this, but I'm wondering if the change to having electric drive motors and an engine just for generating electricity is more efficient and easier on the engine. (regenerative breaking aside)

The Chevy Volt is like this -- drivetrain is electric, gas engine is just a generator.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#65

Post by netcan » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now.

I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an opportunity for regulatory capture.

For example, most European vehicle tax codes have been altered to reflect emissions.

The upshot is that (1) new vehicles are 20% ish more efficient (2) older vehicles become uneconomical faster (3) people who drive older vehicles clear pay more tax. (4) Switching from a 10yr old ICE hatchback to a new one can easily save you $500 pa. Going from a new "efficient" ICE to an electric will save you a fraction of that.

New car buyers pay less tax, old cars pay more. Vehicles hit junkyards faster. Manufacturers sell more cars. Over a decade we'll see a minor (maybe 20% at best) decrease in carbon emissions.

Very little environmental juice for a lot of poor and middle class squeeze. A nice little sales boost for VW.

There's a lot to be said for the simplicity of an outright ban. Ban ICEs. Ban commercial fishing. It worked for CFCs and market hunting. In retrospect, no one wishes we had split hairs with a complicated policy.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#66

Post by tomp » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #21

gambiting wrote: post #3

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

> Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid "Just 1 mile of electric range" is true for most hybrids that don't plug into to charge (from Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc). Obviously more miles would be even better, but this isn't a terrible thing on it's own. The base non-plug-in Toyota Prius Hybrid has had "just 1 mile of electr…

> that hasn't stopped it from getting 50mpg ratings

Is this the "50mpg under ideal laboratory conditions driven by an AI" or "as driven in a real city/highway by a human"?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#67

Post by ATsch » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

I presume that hybrid cars will solve this problem for remote travellers.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#68

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

DerJacques wrote: post #2

While the promise sounds great, it's important to note that no law has actually been passed. Also, incentives to increase sales of electric vehicles are yet to be announced. Denmark's Scandinavian neighbour Norway is on the other side of the spectrum. Heavy subsidisation has caused every 2nd (!) car sold to be electric ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-norway-autos/... ).

[deleted]

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#69

Post by interfixus » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

I live in the furthest, most godforsaken boondocks of Denmark. I see Teslas almost daily. Of course I do. There's probably nowhere in the country I couldn't reach on a single charge.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#70

Post by ATsch » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #3

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

I assume that despite the one mile figure, it will still decrease the amount of fuel burnt. Not having to burn fuel for every stop and go will save a bunch of carbon I bet.