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What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

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Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have absolutely no doubts that the most used language is JavaScript - considering nearly every website in existence relies on it. If you count by total lines of code running in production, then the most likely winner is probably C or COBOL (decent chance your paycheck relies on large COBOL applications working correctly). If you count it by lines of code times number of running instances, then I'm really hard-pre…

> If you count by total lines of code running in production, then the most likely winner is probably C or COBOL By lines of production, it's definitely Javascript. COBOL doesn't come close. What was a lot of developer time in the 80s is dwarfed by the number of people around the world working on websites alone (much less this Node.js silliness). More Javascript is written every day than is produced in C, all year due…

Your first mistake is assuming that COBOL code was written in the 80s and untouched since then. People are still adding to COBOL code even today, and the language itself is still evolving (the newest COBOL spec was in 2014).

> That's where most code ends up getting written.

That's where most of the easy code to find and count gets written. But there is much more code that's outside of user-facing applications. Operating systems and drivers are relatively small, but have a much higher fraction of utilization since you're always using them. Embedded code is massive--not just the obvious things such as your car or airplanes, but also things like the microcontroller in your disk drive, the bluetooth controller for your headphones, your refrigerator, your microwave. There's the business applications: billing, payroll, corporate intranet, not to mention things such as scheduling the automated builds and tests or the management of releases for all of those applications. It's easy to forget that all of that stuff exists if you never work on it, and it's especially easy to think that it can't be that large.

If you avoid double-counting libraries (which is how I interpret the first number), then applications become a lot smaller because so much of applications is hooking together libraries. This is particularly true of non-app-y JS. By contrast, a lot of the business backend application logic (particularly for things such as payroll) is essentially 100% custom-implemented, so a much smaller fraction of it is common libraries. On pretty much any other metric of code use, though, such applications become far smaller in importance.

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#62
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What??! No Nim?!

Nim is shown in the graph on the bottom left, at approximately X = 5, Y = 13.

Thanks, I was looking at the top 20 rankings in the post, not the site. I see it now.

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#63
post #7

As a Rubyist I'm pleased with the Github ranking, but how much of that is tilted by Github being a Ruby platform initially colonized by Rubyists?

And GitHub rankings don't factor in things like the fact that java programmers may be under represented, because they tend to be older with enough experience and contacts to get work - without needing to show a GitHub project (plus if they have kids, they just don't have the time)

I'm in my 30's and one of the younger people in my department. I work in Engineering. I don't use Github I do not know anyone personally who uses it. I think it is probably a generational thing.

Search engine result as well I'd be suspicious of. If I am searching a programming language it is something I don't use very often thus why I am looking up the information. The languages I use the most often I have stack of books on my desk rarely need to look anything up with a search engine.

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#64

The TIOBE index is hot garbage, and always has been. Even so, this article is also pretty bad. Nowhere does the author define what he means by "popularity", which is one of the key problems all of these popularity contests suffer. If we say "Language X is more popular than language Y?" What does that mean? Answers could be any of: * Total extant corpus of X is larger than Y. * Number of people who know X is larger th…

This is a false aggregate: https://blog.shortbar.com/false-aggregates-571745b2d483

If I'm writing a game I care about what's most popular with games. If I'm writing an enterprise reservation system, I care about that.

These languages really live in completely different universes and I think it's time we acknowledge that. The one-size-fits-all survey of this sort feels like a holdover of a time when software development was far more homogeneous.

It's yet another example of how the entire profession is getting more specialized. You used to be a "programmer". Now you're a data engineer, ops engineer, front-end engineer, back-end/full-stack engineer, ios/android/react, system/OS programmer, etc. These are becoming entirely different jobs with little crossover between them, just like family law vs. criminal law vs. estate law vs. corporate law.

https://blog.shortbar.com/the-end-of-the-country-developer-7...

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#65
The big problem is all the major indexes are driven by search engine measures, and those themselves are highly sensitive to any change in the underlying search engine methodology itself. So a small change in Google's ranking algorithm will see a language move up or down dozens of places.

I would tend to focus more on job ads personally because those are at least linked to "real intent" to use a language for something tangible. You don't put it in an ad because something is controversial or had a lot of news lately etc. which can all lead to things being Googled a lot or getting a spurt of search activity.

Github's index is nice in that it is based on actual code, but then it's also heavily biased by what is open source and therefore doesn't fully reflect industry use of languages (which is why I think it deviates from other indexes to put Javascript and Python a bit higher, and less emphasis on say Java and C#).

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#66
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure I wrote this already at some point, but as a 9 year user who has not really starred anything in the last 8 years I still find this methodology flawed. Probably not as flawed as the other two, ok. Also there are some ecosystems where people don't just really use stackexchange, so those are also way off. Could be huge, could be nil.

Also, StackExchange doesn’t measure popularity, but popularity AND difficulty. All else equal, the harder language will have more SO activity.

It's very good of measuring documentation quality. As in, the better your documentation, the less activity there will be.

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#67
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced that SE activity measures difficulty. But it certainly is affected by much more than just popularity. I could imagine it measuring the total API surface, as you can ask more questions about larger subjects. It's certainly a deeply flawed measure, but then pure search engine hits like TIOBE are likely much worse.

To be clear, I don't think it measures difficulty, but difficulty is necessarily a driver of the metric. A complex language is going to generate more questions than a small, intuitive language.

Specifically, complexity will generate more questions than difficulty.

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#68
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s similar to asking: which species is the most successful one? By which measure? Bio-mass? Space occupied?

Ooh, that's an interesting question. I'd have to go with highest total energy consumed through their metabolism and activities. Those with the highest chemical impact on the planet.

I would go with the time fitness takes to bounce back after an environmental change...

So us, then bacteria, and so on.

Re: What is going on with measures of programming language popularity?

#70

There is an excellent book on such things that I highly recommend: How to lie with statistics Problems like this are part of why we have sayings like: Measure twice, cut once. GIGO (Garbage in, garbage out) Some saying about measuring to extreme precision, then "cutting with an axe."

> Measure twice, cut once.

I always thought that had to do with carpentry and woodworking, not statistics.

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