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The Coders of Kentucky

nytimes.com

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Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#61

Post by mattkrause »

burfog wrote: post #57
aerotwelve wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of this view of the liberal arts. To your concern of being "politically indoctrinated", part of the value of a liberal arts education is being exposed to ideas you might not agree with. If you don't agree with the opinions expressed in a class -- political or otherwise -- there is real value in being challenged to think critically about why you don't agree, and then justifying yourself logically via arg…

There is some value in learning how to make a convincing lie. This is what you do if you are sane. You write up a paper about how communism is better, or about how white males are the cause of all badness, or whatever it is that the instructor desires. You don't have to believe a word of it. Practicing this skill isn't worth giving up 2.5% of your life and the cost of a 3-bedroom house. It has absolutely nothing to d…

No. You’re not supposed to be advocating for Communism; you’re supposed to be analyzing something as if you were a Marxist. In other words, suppose that relationships between capital and labor (or social classes more generally) are a major determinant of human events. When viewed through this lens, what actions are especially salient? How would they change if the participants’ social standings were different? You can think about things this way even if, in your daily life, you are actually a member of the John Birch Society.

Taking different perspectives on the same “data” is a pivotal part of science and engineering. You need to do it to interpret your results in light of different theories, and, more practically, you need to do it to present your ideas and results to different audiences. For example, pitching a project to the NIH is very different than pitching a project addressing the same fundamental questions to DARPA, which is in turn very different from the NSF or private foundations. Likewise, I present the same results differently when talking to other scientists vs. clinicians vs. the general public.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#62

Post by nodesocket »

_tqci wrote: post #59
nodesocket wrote: post #44

> "Trump for President.” (Kentucky went 63 percent for him.) What does that have to do with the article? I really despise the media bias and overtly political tone that seeps its way into everything. I live in the South. The real story should be the economy is booming, opportunities are omnipresent, and the American dream of working hard and progressing your way up the financial ladder of success is obtainable for ev…

> What does that have to do with the article? I'm from this area of Kentucky and the fact that it went for Trump has everything to do with the subject. I'm 36 now, and coal has been in decline for almost my entire life. Yet the area cannot move beyond it because they keep waiting for 'coal to come back'. Politicians come and lie, and say they will return them to the glory days of coal. Trump came and told the most br…

> Trump made Kentucky worse

Unemployment rates and total laborforce are at lows and highs respectively since 2000 in Kentucky as of the latest bls data (look at the graph since 2000). Nonfarm wage and salary metrics are at all time record highs in Kentucky. The data suggests contrary, you may have a promising career at the NYT.

https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ky.htm

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#63

Post by subway »

opportune wrote: post #21

I'm from KY. This article is great, but in focusing on these coding bootcamp graduates, it misses the much larger picture of just how much brain drain occurs for actual CS graduates (who, to be fair, are much less likely to be from Eastern KY). Right now they're taking millions in gov. money to train a small amount of people... but Kentucky graduates many more people with degrees in CS every year, by about an order o…

I think in the mid-long run, remote workers will scramble to get out of KY. State income tax is 6%, and if you live/work in Louisville you get hit with another 2.2%. I GTFO when I realized that my state/local income tax in KY were was than enough to rent a comfortable apartment in Seattle.

Obviously I get hit with dozen different taxes in Seattle, but I'm also able to reap the benefits like decent public transit and well maintained roads/sidewalks. I seriously struggle to understand where my taxes went in KY. It's a pretty abysmal situation.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#64

Post by lsadam0 »

nodesocket wrote: post #62
_tqci wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does that have to do with the article? I'm from this area of Kentucky and the fact that it went for Trump has everything to do with the subject. I'm 36 now, and coal has been in decline for almost my entire life. Yet the area cannot move beyond it because they keep waiting for 'coal to come back'. Politicians come and lie, and say they will return them to the glory days of coal. Trump came and told the most br…

> Trump made Kentucky worse Unemployment rates and total laborforce are at lows and highs respectively since 2000 in Kentucky as of the latest bls data (look at the graph since 2000). Nonfarm wage and salary metrics are at all time record highs in Kentucky. The data suggests contrary, you may have a promising career at the NYT. https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ky.htm

There's something you don't understand about Kentucky: The huge economic divide between Eastern Kentucky (Appalachia) and the rest of the state. Appalachia clings to being a coal based economy, and it's been failing them for decades now. According to the state Government, as of August 2018 the unemployment rate for Eastern Kentucky is much higher than the national average at 7.8%: https://kystats.ky.gov/kylmi/index/

Taking the state wide average masks how bad things are in Appalachia. Eastern Kentucky cannot catch up to the rest of the state until politicians stop lying to them and lay bare the sobering reality: Coal isn't coming back.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#65

Post by _tqci »

dajohnson89 wrote: post #60
_tqci wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does that have to do with the article? I'm from this area of Kentucky and the fact that it went for Trump has everything to do with the subject. I'm 36 now, and coal has been in decline for almost my entire life. Yet the area cannot move beyond it because they keep waiting for 'coal to come back'. Politicians come and lie, and say they will return them to the glory days of coal. Trump came and told the most br…

Mentioned in the article: http://time.com/4793315/donald-trump-budget-appalachian-regi...

I had already forgotten about the Trump administration's attempt to slash the ARC. That would have been a huge economic hit to Appalachia.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#66

Post by vonzeppelin »

quanticle wrote: post #29

I think the most important line of the article is: "On its first run in 2016, Interapt had 800 applicants, accepted 50 and graduated 35." Any strategy that posits IT and programming "insourcing" as a solution for the troubles of Middle America is going to have to have a strategy for the 750/800 people who don't have the chops to become a software engineer.

Isn't it more likely that they had a class limit of 50 and not that the 750 didn't have the chops to become a software engineer?

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#67

Post by burfog »

mattkrause wrote: post #61
burfog wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some value in learning how to make a convincing lie. This is what you do if you are sane. You write up a paper about how communism is better, or about how white males are the cause of all badness, or whatever it is that the instructor desires. You don't have to believe a word of it. Practicing this skill isn't worth giving up 2.5% of your life and the cost of a 3-bedroom house. It has absolutely nothing to d…

No. You’re not supposed to be advocating for Communism; you’re supposed to be analyzing something as if you were a Marxist. In other words, suppose that relationships between capital and labor (or social classes more generally) are a major determinant of human events. When viewed through this lens, what actions are especially salient? How would they change if the participants’ social standings were different? You can…

This is the claim. In reality, if they can figure out that you are a member of the John Birch Society or otherwise rejecting things (even outside of the written assignment) you'll be lucky to get a D. For example, if they happen to spot you outside of class trying to raise support for the "wrong" political cause, then that might affect the grade.

If presenting to NIH and DARPA is what matters, surely there are far more efficient and effective ways to teach this. It doesn't have to suck up 2.5% of a human lifetime and the cost of a 3-bedroom house.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#68

Post by mattkrause »

burfog wrote: post #67
mattkrause wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You’re not supposed to be advocating for Communism; you’re supposed to be analyzing something as if you were a Marxist. In other words, suppose that relationships between capital and labor (or social classes more generally) are a major determinant of human events. When viewed through this lens, what actions are especially salient? How would they change if the participants’ social standings were different? You can…

This is the claim. In reality, if they can figure out that you are a member of the John Birch Society or otherwise rejecting things (even outside of the written assignment) you'll be lucky to get a D. For example, if they happen to spot you outside of class trying to raise support for the "wrong" political cause, then that might affect the grade. If presenting to NIH and DARPA is what matters, surely there are far mo…

I'm sorry you had bad professors, but this has absolutely not been my experience and I don't think yours--if it ever happened outside of a conservative talking point--is very typical. I also have no idea where you're taking a gen-ed class that costs $100,000-$1,000,000 or takes 25.% of your life. A typical course is 15 weeks @ As for efficiency....I'll admit that part of the rationale behind these requirements is the idea that everyone should be exposed to a wide range of ideas. However, I think it's not totally bonkers pedagogically either. A random collection of 18 year olds won't have much expertise--and even less in common. Literature (and, to some extent, history) gives everyone a "data set" to work from, and it's one where there are lots of possible interpretations. No one is going to have a hot take on the contents in Bio/Chem/Math/Physics 101 or 102; that stuff has been settled for decades.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#69

Post by burfog »

mattkrause wrote: post #68
burfog wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the claim. In reality, if they can figure out that you are a member of the John Birch Society or otherwise rejecting things (even outside of the written assignment) you'll be lucky to get a D. For example, if they happen to spot you outside of class trying to raise support for the "wrong" political cause, then that might affect the grade. If presenting to NIH and DARPA is what matters, surely there are far mo…

I'm sorry you had bad professors, but this has absolutely not been my experience and I don't think yours--if it ever happened outside of a conservative talking point--is very typical. I also have no idea where you're taking a gen-ed class that costs $100,000-$1,000,000 or takes 25.% of your life. A typical course is 15 weeks @ As for efficiency....I'll admit that part of the rationale behind these requirements is the…

It's not one class. It's two years of these classes. For example, in a 4-year Computer Science BS degree you get 2 years of indoctrination, 1 year of CS, and 1 year of semi-related stuff like physics. I don't think it is proper to only count time spent in the classroom. Depending on the school schedule (4 or 5 at once? summers?), the required 16 to 30 classes of this stuff will occupy 2 years.

If a person lives 80 years and spends 2 years on this stuff, it is 2.5% of their life. Houses in much of the USA can be had for $100,000. Two years of college can easily exceed that even without including dorms and the opportunity cost of foregone salary. I think you could break $200,000 for two years at the expensive schools, and make that $600,000 if we include trimming a career short by a couple years.

I somehow managed to dodge the worst of this stuff with very careful class selection and a fortunately-timed transfer to a different college. My kids have been hit by unfair grading however, as was my father. For my father: even half a century ago, an assignment to write about nuclear weapons would get you a D- if you argued in favor of getting more of them. (and in case you wonder, he is an excellent writer)

This exposure to a wide range of ideas is not just unidirectional for political outlook. It's also that way by field of study, with the non-STEM majors able to graduate without much science or math. Typically they can get away with something like College Algebra (a repeat of 8th grade), Astronomy, and Nutrition. One shouldn't be able to graduate without Statistics (a calculus-based one), 3 semesters of Physics (again with calculus) with labs, 2 semesters of Chemistry with labs, 2 semesters of Biology with labs, microeconomics, and macroeconomics.

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