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Brave files adtech complaint against Google

reuters.com

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Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetically, you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection). But that will have implications for latency of post updates, security, and complexity of maintaining the system.

> you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection). That was effectively funded by taxpayers by way of universities. Maybe the answer is public funding for online content, but we should be clear about it. This is an economic problem, not a technical one. Federation might slice the economic problem into smaller pieces, but they still need to be paid…

The GP did ask a very technical question, without any requirement stated on profitability.

The example used (Sufficient Velocity) does not appear to be profit-based either.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetically, you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection). But that will have implications for latency of post updates, security, and complexity of maintaining the system.

> you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection). That was effectively funded by taxpayers by way of universities. Maybe the answer is public funding for online content, but we should be clear about it. This is an economic problem, not a technical one. Federation might slice the economic problem into smaller pieces, but they still need to be paid…

Slice it down enough, and the average user can donate without much issue

Slice it down even further, and it can simply be the cost of entry. In the same fashion that P2P sharing communities usually require that you make X gb of data available before you can join, or closed torrent communities require an even seed/leech ratio, your federated network can require that you allow upload and 10gb of hard drive space to use (or vary based on usage or something)

Distribute the cost to the point that for any given person the cost is negligible is the ideal.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#63
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a public company? Probably rapid replacement of the C-suite. Almost nobody has margins fat enough to put up with that.

Would pulling out of EU be a better decision in this scenario?

Good. Then someone with a different business model, not relying on selling the user, would fill the gap. And make billions.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#64
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a public company? Probably rapid replacement of the C-suite. Almost nobody has margins fat enough to put up with that.

Would pulling out of EU be a better decision in this scenario?

The EU is a huge market. Why would you not want to sell to them?

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#65
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask what the amount of money that can be made has to do with this? First of all: they make a case against a particular type of advertising, not all of them. While I honestly believe an argument can be made against any type of advertisement, that's not what they're doing. Second: if an industry is based on immoral practices, what do we care if they make a lot of money? It's like saying "we should not go against…

Human weighting of incentive signals differs. "We should not go against slavery, it's an $X billions industry" isn't precisely how the US South thought about the problem, but ultimately they did go to war because they recognized that chnage in the status quo would bring utter economic ruin to a powerful sector of the populace with the political and social clout to goad the rest into war. So yeah, "That industry makes…

Slavery is a bad analogy. The increased buying power of the new consumers (freed slaves) is economically more beneficial than having them locked in as non-consumers (slaves).

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#66
post #13
post #7

Its admirable what brave is trying to do. Practically speaking, its one of the best chance we have of creating a new internet where the incentives are more privacy focused. Hope they succeed.

A new internet where $273 billion advertising industry does not exist?

A new internet where the major players continue making their money but have to adopt more consumer friendly practices.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#67

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

Just to get people on the same page, Doc Searls has a good post on the difference between advertising and adtech, and why replacing adtech with advertising is something one might want to do:

http://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/2018/05/12/gdpr/

> Advertising isn’t personal, and doesn’t have to be. In fact, knowing it’s not personal is an advantage for advertisers. Consumers don’t wonder what the hell an ad is doing where it is, who put it there, or why.

> Advertising makes brands. Nearly all the brands you know were burned into your brain by advertising. In fact the term branding was borrowed by advertising from the cattle business. (Specifically by Procter and Gamble in the early 1930s.)

> Advertising carries an economic signal. Meaning that it shows a company can afford to advertise. Tracking-based advertising can’t do that. (For more on this, read Don Marti, starting here.)

> Advertising sponsors media, and those paid by media. All the big pro sports salaries are paid by advertising that sponsors game broadcasts. For lack of sponsorship, media—especially publishers—are hurting. @WaltMossberg learned why on a conference stage when an ad agency guy said the agency’s ads wouldn’t sponsor Walt’s new publication, recode. Walt: “I asked him if that meant he’d be placing ads on our fledgling site. He said yes, he’d do that for a little while. And then, after the cookies he placed on Recode helped him to track our desirable audience around the web, his agency would begin removing the ads and placing them on cheaper sites our readers also happened to visit. In other words, our quality journalism was, to him, nothing more than a lead generator for target-rich readers, and would ultimately benefit sites that might care less about quality.” With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Versus the top four things he says about adtech:

> Adtech is built to undermine the brand value of all the media it uses, because it cares about eyeballs more than media, and it causes negative associations with brands. Consider this: perhaps a $trillion or more has been spent on adtech, and not one brand known to the world has been made by it. (Bob Hoffman, aka the Ad Contrarian, is required reading on this.)

> Adtech wants to be personal. That’s why it’s tracking-based. Though its enthusiasts call it “interest-based,” “relevant” and other harmless-sounding euphemisms, it relies on tracking people. In fact it can’t exist without tracking people. (Note: while all adtech is programmatic, not all programmatic advertising is adtech. In other words, programmatic advertising doesn’t have to be based on tracking people. Same goes for interactive. Programmatic and interactive advertising will both survive the adtech crash.) Adtech spies on people and violates their privacy. By design. Never mind that you and your browser or app are anonymized. The ads are still for your eyeballs, and correlations can be made.

> Adtech is full of fraud and a vector for malware. @ACFou is required reading on this.

> Adtech incentivizes publications to prioritize “content generation” over journalism.

He also makes the point that adtech is fundamentally closer to direct marketing (mail spam, email spam... all spam except meaty SPAM):

https://medium.com/@dsearls/rethinking-john-wanamaker-3f9cfa...

Brave replacing adtech with advertising is intelligible if you understand the distinction being made.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#68
post #40

Google (and Facebook) already have consent from the majority of users who don't care about this and would rather keep access to gmail, youtube, and social networks. Nice try, like GDPR itself, but the intent does not match the implementation. There are trillions in market cap standing in the way and this will end in nothing but a waste of legal fees.

GDPR consent doesn't work like that...

OP is working in the ad space and he's been complaining about the GDPR forever. They're still in the denial phase.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#69
post #19
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, ad networks don't sell personal data. That's their secret sauce - selling it is largely counterproductive. I can't call up Yahoo, and ask to buy the personal data of "forapurpose". If I could, it would take me a few million dollars to build a clone of their most valuable asset - their user database. What they sell is ad spots in webpages, when those webpages are visited by people who satisfy some…

While it is technically correct that ad networks don't sell personal data, it is also irrelevant. It's not the bits that matter, it's what one does informed by the bits. Ad networks sell _actionable insights_ informed by personal data. An ad network answers the question 'what is the best way to spend $$$ and win this election' _using_ personal data of millions of people, but not _revealing_ the personal data to the p…

While there is some evil involved with targetted advertising there is a significant difference between that and direct data selling. The latter would be way worse. One tries to sell you weird stuff after you look up the infamous giant barrel of lube after hearing about all of the joke reviews. The other gives the lines of an honest man to hang you with to anyone willing to pay and spin you as a colossal pervert.

It is why video rentals were protected information. That and the sublime trolling of reading Robert Bork's video rentals into official record after he stated there was no constitutional right to privacy.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#70

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

In all that, I noticed you weren't giving the publishers any kind of choice in the matter.
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