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OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

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Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#61

Post by nindalf »

jjcm wrote: post #28

Overall a very good game. Definitely smart on PAIN gaming's part to delay the game and wait until the mid game (where OpenAI traditionally excels the most) is over in order to rely on their stronger carry. I think the lack of 5 couriers really showed where OpenAI had a crutch the last game it played. Excited to see the improvements as this goes on, and I suspect that next year we'll see the OpenAI team beat the #1 ra…

Loved the strategy used by Pain. They recognised that fighting OpenAI wasn’t working so they actively avoided fights. They recognised strategic shortcomings, like the AI’s reluctance to pressure lanes and exploited it. What disappointed me a bit is that the AI didn’t make a concerted effort to win the game when it was strongest.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#62

Post by stale2002 »

arthens wrote: post #31
sambroner wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like playing one of the best 200 players in the world is a reasonable proxy for a top tier player. I'm unfamiliar with DOTA rules, but does anyone know if there are any limitations on the openAI team? e.g. Things like keystrokes per minute, scroll speed, etc

These were the limitations for the previous OpenAI game: - Random Draft using a pool of 18 heroes (Crystal Maiden, Death Prophet, Earthshaker, Gyrocopter, Lich, Lion, Necrophos, Queen of Pain, Razor, Riki, Shadow Fiend, Slark, Sniper, Sven, Tidehunter, Viper, or Witch Doctor) - No summons/illusions - 5 invulnerable couriers, no exploiting them by scouting or tanking - No Scan Not sure if this match has the same limit…

They didn't have the invincible carriers and had more heros this time around.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#63

Post by nindalf »

noxvilleza wrote: post #59
21 wrote: post #16

How can I tell looking at the screen who is winning? Is there a score somewhere? Maybe the left side sliders?

Net Worth Difference is the best single indicator, but there are additional factors like tower difference, item purchasing decisions, hero composition, hero aliveness & buyback status, aegis, etc. Some specific heroes also wildly differ from the norm for each one of these factors. The game is very complex :()

Real noxville?

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#64

Post by foobaw »

mbbutler wrote: post #60
noxvilleza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually internationally delayed reactions to make it more fair (200ms of delay added).

That's what OpenAI claims, but there have been too many insta-hex/euls moments for me to believe that. Players are shift-queing blink+AoE spells and getting hexed in between the two abilities. That's way faster than a 200 ms reaction time. I think OpenAI might have a bug with how they're adding reaction time.

Someone did an analysis on this because it seemed like insta hex the last time they played, but they were all pre-queued and the 200ms turned out to be accurate.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#65

Post by makoz »

noxvilleza wrote: post #53
symlinkk wrote: post #37

Their reaction time seemed way too fast. It was entertaining to watch though.

It's actually internationally delayed reactions to make it more fair (200ms of delay added).

Watching the match there seemed to be a crazy amount of instant Euls and what not.

I doubt a player is about to react to a blink initiation and click Euls/Hex in the same amount of time. It'd be a lot more fair for them to calibrate against the reaction time of pro-players across the same scenarios. (I doubt pros can hit 200ms consistently)

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#66

Post by nindalf »

Leary wrote: post #39

Outfought the humans in teamfights, other than that not sure how much long term strategic thought was shown.

It was frustrating to see it do so many things well but make strange decisions otherwise

- poor warding. Some wards were simply wasted. (Wards are small, invisible, immovable units that grant vision) - using powerful long cool down spells to earn gold instead of keeping it in reserve for fights - not recognising that one of the lanes needed to be pushed out. Eventually this bit them in the ass. - using buybacks where none were required

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#67

Post by nindalf »

noxvilleza wrote: post #53
symlinkk wrote: post #37

Their reaction time seemed way too fast. It was entertaining to watch though.

It's actually internationally delayed reactions to make it more fair (200ms of delay added).

200 ms is much better than 99.99% of humans though. One specific example - one of the humans playing Axe tried to cast a spell that would taunt an enemy into attacking him. It takes 400ms to cast this. That’s not enough time for all but a handful of humans to react, but OpenAI managed it with ease. He couldn’t land the spell until he purchased an item that granted him invisibility.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#68

Post by noxvilleza »

_ptgt wrote: post #51
nopinsight wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, the differences among a top echelon of human expertise are vastly smaller than those between humans and other kinds of agents, animals or AIs. We all share similar cognitive architecture for handling complex domains after all. Once OpenAI Five defeat 3-4 pro teams convincingly, it could be presumed from the observation above that they will defeat any other top teams within a year at most, if sufficient re…

> Once OpenAI Five defeat 3-4 pro teams convincingly, it could be presumed from the observation above that they will defeat any other top teams within a year at most, if sufficient resources are used for improving the AI. An exception is when a fundamental hidden weakness is found in the AI. Not sure how you intended this, but the hero pool constraint is actually an enormous advantage for the AI. The current hero poo…

> The current hero pool isn't, by any means, random.

Some of the restrictions they've discussed - like initially they couldn't handle with illusions, summons or invisibility at all. They obviously dropped the invis restriction.

My feeling is that the AI just learned that of the given pool, 'deathball' was the best (and specific heroes like Gyrocopter/Sniper were the most effective carries).

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#70

Post by adverbly »

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it.

All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many complex strategies that it is employing(grouping for towers, lane swaps, etc...). But at the same time, it really does look at the moment like this is only close because the AI has vast advantages from mechanics and teamfighting.

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