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Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

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Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#61

Post by sayhello »

wasd wrote: post #54
sayhello wrote: post #16

This is exciting because the second generation standard environment allows Google App Engine to provide a more "idiomatic" experience. Using gVisor, instead of NaCL, as the sandboxing technology, shipping new runtimes becomes a much more tractable task with less differences from the "plain" runtime. In fact, gVisor allows us to use the runtime unmodified. This in turn, decreases the "lock-in". There are still decisio…

Thank you for all your hard work! I'm so excited about thew new app engine. Pleaaase bring Ruby next :).

More runtimes coming out soon. Stay tuned :-)

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#62

Post by wolco »

meritt wrote: post #24
wolco wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forge is a laravel only platform and doesn't scale automatically. It is more useful for maintaining a standard deployment process for your laravel application. It made setting up queues / redis / mongo a breeze when we onboarded new employees.

> Forge is a laravel only platform That's incorrect. The page says: "We don’t discriminate: Laravel, Symfony, WordPress, Statamic, Craft and any other PHP application can easily be installed on a Forge server." > doesn't scale automatically That's true but I the person to whom I was responding isn't looking for auto-scaling (nor am I presenting it as a GAE competitor). It sounds like he just wants a button to push th…

If you wanted say wordpress cpanel hosting will provide a one click button, auto update plus allow you install most popular php software packages easily.

Paying 10 or more dollars a month probably doesn't make a lot of sense unless you are installing laravel and for some reason can't do it yourself.. Or if you need to replicate the process. It is not really one button click either you need to find/create the right script(s) if you are doing anything complex and if you are not just have the developers get a copy of the app from github and clone a dev box on digitalocean.

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#64

Post by bpicolo »

velominati wrote: post #56
_wmd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I correct in understanding the new environment is built on essentially a ptrace sandbox? How does that impact performance? Is it still single threaded? If you're moved beyond single threads, how does the it cope with security problems endemic to userland sandboxing? (TOCTTOU issues as the 'hypervisor' verifies arguments, etc) Are you willing to compare your approach to for example Lambda's approach, where the user…

Hi. I'm the PM at Google Cloud on the Second Generation runtimes. This is based on gVisor ( https://github.com/google/gvisor ), but it does not use the ptrace sandboxing that is in the mainline open source project. Our First Generation runtimes (aka nacl) were based on ptrace. In our informal testing we have observed the Second Generation runtimes to be about 20% faster than the First Generation. I don't have benchma…

Two have access to more than one hardware thread or more than one OS thread?

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#65

Post by bus_error »

avolcano wrote: post #36
bus_error wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I work for Google on the App Engine team doing documentation. Firstly, a sincere thank you for reading and caring about our documentation. With regards to the page you referenced, would you please elaborate on what information would help you come to the appropriate conclusion about using a second generation runtime? Your feedback would be very useful to us in order to shape this page into something that p…

Sure, and apologies for the harshness in my original post. My main complaint about the marketing landing page at https://cloud.google.com/appengine/ is that it doesn't contain any immediate information about the different environments. It does have a link to "Choosing the right Environment" but it's _waaay_ down below the fold. In general I wish Google Cloud product pages had their big "View Documentation" buttons up…

Thank you all for the feedback, it is extremely useful for us.

From this, I believe the action items for us (apologies if I have missed out anything, please correct me):

* Work on making it clearer which environment and which runtime you should choose for your apps and cut out the marketing prose.

* Provide more technical details on the differences between first generation and second generation runtimes.

* Be explicit on what libs are provided and what need to be vendored.

If y'all want to provide more feedback please feel free to add to this thread (I'll be checking it periodically for a few days) or contact me via email - lla@(you know the domain).

Disclosure: I work for Google on the App Engine team doing documentation.

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#66

Post by thesandlord »

cloud-is-future wrote: post #58
andr wrote: post #38

What explains the vast price difference between App Engine standard and flexible environment? In the standard environment, $0.05/hr gives me a 128MB, 600MHz container. Flexible environment is priced at GCE pricing, giving me 3.75GB and 1 vCPU for the same price, before even applying committed use discounts. It seems hard to justify using the standard environment, even if scaling up/down is faster.

That is a very good question. Another thing to note is that GAE standard api does not work in Flex or GCE (no portable api for datastore, memcache, runtime apis for versions and modules, etc.) So basically any code that you write in standard gae is locked in. Another interesting note is that standard gae is covered in free tier but flex is not covered in free tier. It seems like google is trying to lock you in with s…

Gen1 Standard used proprietary GAE APIs that locked you in.

Gen2 Standard (PHP7, Node8, Java8, Python3, etc) uses the standard GCP APIs that you can call from anywhere, including other clouds. It should be relatively straightforward to move from Gen2 Standard to Flex and vice versa.

(I work for GCP)

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#67

Post by iangudger »

_wmd wrote: post #45
sayhello wrote: post #16

This is exciting because the second generation standard environment allows Google App Engine to provide a more "idiomatic" experience. Using gVisor, instead of NaCL, as the sandboxing technology, shipping new runtimes becomes a much more tractable task with less differences from the "plain" runtime. In fact, gVisor allows us to use the runtime unmodified. This in turn, decreases the "lock-in". There are still decisio…

Am I correct in understanding the new environment is built on essentially a ptrace sandbox? How does that impact performance? Is it still single threaded? If you're moved beyond single threads, how does the it cope with security problems endemic to userland sandboxing? (TOCTTOU issues as the 'hypervisor' verifies arguments, etc) Are you willing to compare your approach to for example Lambda's approach, where the user…

I work on gVisor. gVisor supports concurrent multi-treading, but should not be vulnerable to TOCTTOU, even in ptrace mode. gVisor handles system calls itself, it does not simply verify the args for app system calls and then pass them on to the host. That said, if you find any security issues, please let us know. There is a security email address in the github issue template.

App Engine Flex is a version of App Engine that uses VMs with Linux. You can find a comparison between the standard and flexible environments here:

https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/the-appengine-enviro...

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#68

Post by detritus »

detritus wrote: post #6

Excuse my complete and total ignorance here - but is this essentially a 'quick deploy' php instance? if so, what might a none-Google alternative be? I've only ever 'rolled my own', on small-scale virtual or shared servers, but I've got an upcoming project I could do with trying to install on something completely seperate - something like this might fit the bill. Or not! Thanks.

Thank you for all your responses here - I am red-faced with shame to realise I'd for years completely ignored exactly what containers are and associated terms such as 'Heroku' or 'Kubernetes' I'd simply assumed they were curious alien creatures, completely irrelevant to me!

After a long journey down various rabbit holes last night, where I at points got quite excited by the idea of leveraging Heroku with perhaps a soupçon of Cloudflare in the background or AWS' myriad of services, I ended up back where I've always been, and think I'll stick with what I know for my upcoming project.

However, I think this'd be a great way to dabble in things I really don't have any famiiarity with (eg. Ruby), so I'll have a play yet.

Thanks, all!

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#69

Post by detritus »

mattlondon wrote: post #10
detritus wrote: post #6

Excuse my complete and total ignorance here - but is this essentially a 'quick deploy' php instance? if so, what might a none-Google alternative be? I've only ever 'rolled my own', on small-scale virtual or shared servers, but I've got an upcoming project I could do with trying to install on something completely seperate - something like this might fit the bill. Or not! Thanks.

AppEngine is a "Platform as a Service" although they are re-phrasing it as "serverless" these days. It has benefits like you dont have to worry about the "roll your own" side of things - you just deploy your code and it runs (Google takes care of the servers - patches, security etc). The "killer" feature of AppEngine is the scalability - i.e. your small-scale virtual or shared servers are ok for small usage, but what…

Thank you very much for your response here, fellow LDNer - it's illuminated a domain I had completely overlooked for years!

Re: Beta release of PHP 7.2 in the Google App Engine standard environment

#70

Post by sonaltr »

sayhello wrote: post #16

This is exciting because the second generation standard environment allows Google App Engine to provide a more "idiomatic" experience. Using gVisor, instead of NaCL, as the sandboxing technology, shipping new runtimes becomes a much more tractable task with less differences from the "plain" runtime. In fact, gVisor allows us to use the runtime unmodified. This in turn, decreases the "lock-in". There are still decisio…

What about search and cache?

it's still Python 2.7 only :(

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