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Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

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Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#61

Post by yontherubicon »

threeseed wrote: post #23
mrschwabe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, now let's make open decentralized app distribution platforms that cannot be censored like this.

Go right ahead. And then watch as nobody uses them. Because nobody other than a fringe minority actually wants free speech in all its deranged, violent, racist, mysgonistic, cruel, abusive forms. The majority of us just want a nice, safe space free from the nasty side of humanity.

I'm not really certain how to respond to this viewpoint of yours.

You seem to be under the impression that such a safe space 1) can exist and 2) would be beneficial.

I'm going to simply point out that such a space cannot exist. People will think things, and those things will eventually leak out. There are very real evolutionary-biological reasons for all of those things and mans nature is not so easy to change.

As for whether such a space would be beneficial, I hold that it would not. It may be beneficial to have something akin to it as part of child rearing, gradually alleviated as the child gains maturity, but the dark nasty side of humanity cannot be eliminated. It can only be sublimated and disciplined. Thus, to eliminate speech simply because it offends your sensibilities is to ensure that you are blindsided as the nasty things metastasize into a cascade of pent-up Id.

And then where will you be? On your knees in front of the undealt with, undisciplined Id, simply because rather than have a dialogue with it, you chose to stuff it into a box.

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#62

Post by jiojfdsal3 »

dagenix wrote: post #11
onecooldev24 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing rubbish here is blatant disregard for freedom of speech (Didn't really expect anything different from the fools here). There are platforms that are monopoly and they control free speech at this point.

Freedom of speech only applies to the government. It doesn't require any private actor to tolerate crazy, hate filled nonsense on their platforms. It's his right to continue to spew his garbage, he just has to do it elsewhere.

The definition of "freedom of speech" is "the right to express any opinions without censorship or restraint" (Oxford Dictionary). It does not say anything about the 1st Amendment.

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#63

Post by JumpCrisscross »

jiojfdsal3 wrote: post #48
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you support the idea that Verizon and AT&T should be free to block whatever content they wish, correct? Not necessarily. Apple is a non-monopoly making a judgement about their corner of a decentralised protocol. That’s quite different from an ISP, where many Americans have little or no choice. Particularly when said ISPs have often received lawful monopolies and government subsidies. Context matters. Finally, my…

In my area, I have access to Comcast, Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile and many other smaller ISPs. Since there is no ISP monopoly in my area, should these ISPs be allowed to block content?

> Since there is no ISP monopoly in my area, should these ISPs be allowed to block content?

You cherry-picked one point. Taken together, Apple’s lack of monopoly status, terms of use and lack of an explicit history of subsidies and markets exclusively granted by fiat make the First Amendment less applicable to it than e.g. Verizon.

In the cases where customers dinged ISPs for throttling, it came down to the ISPs having marketed “Internet access,” not some convoluted expansion of the First Amendment to private actors.

I believe in encouraging a public forum for the exchange of ideas. But I also believe in private citizens’—including corporations’—rights to decide with what they’re associated. In this particular case, we have someone who serially relays emotionally-charged and unambiguously-false information to his viewers. Not going to defend him unless a government tries to shut him down.

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#64

Post by yontherubicon »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55
yontherubicon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they're calling it hate speech. He doesn't talk about any particular ethnic group (not even Jews, despite what his detractors might say). He's against IIRC having trans children take puberty blockers, which might be an issue, but TBH an argument can be made for the well-being of the child. No, I think this is an issue of twitter-mob pressure against Itunes after Spotify announced they would keep Infowars conten…

> not even Jews, despite what his detractors might say He’s talked extensively about the Jewish mafia. He promoted violence against the made-up “Pizzagate” B.S. and only backed down because Texan libel law is particularly stern. I support Alex Jones’ right to speak, but I don’t think—particularly in the era of the Internet—Apple should support him.

>Jewish Mafia

There's a Jewish Mafia?

>Pizzagate

He talked about it, sure, but if you can find me where he promotes violence against Alefantis then I'll eat my hat.

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#65

Post by jiojfdsal3 »

linusw wrote: post #60
jiojfdsal3 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you support the idea that Verizon and AT&T should be free to block whatever content they wish, correct?

Apple isn't a public utility. It does not maintain iTunes as a public service, nor does it have any sort of monopoly over podcast distribution. It would be very strange to regulate it as such. (To be clear, internet access is not regarded as a public utility in the US, although I think I lean heavily in that direction.)

I can switch my ISP from Verizon to AT&T or Comcast with a single phone call tomorrow. Apple is far more of a monopoly than the ISPs in my area. Should we regulate Apple as a public utility?

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#66

Post by briandear »

__m wrote: post #12
i_am_nomad wrote: post #6

I've never listened to it, and in fact I have no idea who that guy is or what he talks about, except that he's supposedly a conspiracy theorist. For those of you who have, what made his show so objectionable (to Apple, anyway)?

He claimed the Sandy Hook shooting never happened for example and that the parents of the victims were actors

If we are to go down this route, I should hope South Park Mexican is removed from Apple Music next. I am no fan of Alex Jones, but he traffics in conspiracies for entertainment value. He’s a shock jock for the tin foil hat crowd. That doesn’t excuse his ideas, but South Park Mexican is serving 45 years for sexually assaulting a 9 year old girl and his music is available right now on Apple Music — an actual, convicted child rapist can make royalties from Apple Music but Alex Jones gets banned? Jones is guilty of bad taste, SPM is guilty of raping a 9 year old girl.

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#67

Post by yifanlu »

jiojfdsal3 wrote: post #33
dagenix wrote: post #29

As a reminder to everyone: the constitutional guarantee to freedom of speech means that the _government_ cannot censor any views (outside of certain exceptions for threatening language, and the like). It does not mean that a private entity has to enable speech that they find objectionable.

So you support the idea that Verizon and AT&T should be free to block whatever content they wish, correct?

No, because ISPs are natural monopolies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly). The government allows them to have a regional monopoly in exchange for investing in the infrastructure. As such, there’s no easy way for competition to happen. (You would have to invest in a new infrastructure. Notice how you never have two cable companies or two DSL companies unless it’s one company selling under two names). The reason net neutrality is a big deal is because ISPs want their cake and eat it too. They like the protections of a natural monopoly but they don’t like the regulations that comes with it.

So ISPs dictating what content is acceptable would be like your garbage collection company refusing to collect political flyers for an opposing party or something. Even though it’s not technically the government, I would see it as a government sponsored entity.

Now if you want something compariable, consider the bakery refusing to serve a gay couple. Even though I support gay rights, I agree there with the Supreme Court that a private entity should not be forced to endorse speech they do not agree with. And that would be what Apple is doing here.

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#68

Post by mrschwabe »

willio58 wrote: post #17
mrschwabe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, now let's make open decentralized app distribution platforms that cannot be censored like this.

Podcasts are decentralized already. The feed is still there, just not in Apple’s opt-in index any longer.

Good point. I wonder if Apple will/has banned their app too? They did that to Gab.

Just goes to show if you are doing anything remotely controversial do not build in Apple's ecosystem and most definitely do not invest in development of software that relies on being distributed in said ecosystem. If they ban a podcast or an app for hatespeech or wrongthink (under their 'definition' or on the basis of a hyped up PR campaign from a well funded political opponent perhaps) they can ban you for anything on a whim.

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#69

Post by briandear »

threeseed wrote: post #41
s_m_t wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why now. Sandy Hook was five years ago.

Because that's just an example. He has plenty of objectionable content.

Louis Farrakhan is on Apple Music and is far more objectionable in terms of his views of Jews than anything ever said by Alex Jones.

https://www.adl.org/blog/louis-farrakhan-delivers-yet-anothe...

Re: Apple is removing Alex Jones and InfoWars’ podcasts from iTunes

#70

Post by tomhoward »

neya wrote: post #49

Probably be down-voted for this, but I find it funny, lots of people here support Apple. No matter how trash the podcast author was, I'd imagine there'd be an outrage if this were a move by Google. I'm not a fan of either, but interesting to observe the polarized reactions depending on the corporate in question.

> I'd imagine there'd be an outrage if this were a move by Google.

> but interesting to observe the polarized reactions depending on the corporate in question.

You're interested to see the polarized reactions you've imagined :)

Apple gets plenty of criticism on HN, just for different things to what Google gets criticism for.

There's no reason to believe Google would be heavily criticised on HN if they took the same action Apple is taking here.

People are sophisticated enough to consider context in their reactions to things.

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