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Founders who can't code

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Founders who can't code

#61

Post by adw »

forkandwait wrote: post #20
lachyg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that doing hardcore marketing and biz-dev isn't 'putting your head down'? If a fantastic technical founder programs a fantastic app, but no one finds out about it, what value is it? It needs to be in the hands of users! I believe that it's just as valuable (i'm not going to say 'if not more')

I think true sales is 'putting your head down'; cold calling is at least as manly as debugging Ruby. But I think "biz-dev" is often, well, spinning bullshit fantasies, putting them into powerpoints with nice colors, and calling it work. Not always, but often. I guess that's why proven coders and proven commission salespeople (and proven accountants) can always find jobs, while "big picture" folks are left unemployed,…

What you say isn't wrong here, but it's one-eyed.

Specifically, it's much more true in consumer than B2B. In B2B, biz dev is building partnerships, channels, distribution, obtaining resources you need at prices you can afford, all that good stuff. It's the absolute engine of your business.

If you're writing a B2C app, doesn't matter about the platform, then what biz is there to dev? In a similar sense, you need marketers, not salesmen, because your problem is getting a call-to-action out to your potential market as effectively and efficiently as possible. You can't do that door-to-door at scale.

But if you're doing enterprise software, the converse is true. You need biz dev to shape your proposition, and you need a sales force to go and hammer down doors and melt the copper in the phonelines.

Different problems, different solutions, different solvers, that's all.

Re: Founders who can't code

#62

Post by [deleted] »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #43
alnayyir wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a specific part of that, that you take exception with? Replies like "wait. what?!" don't actually contribute to the conversation on YC.News and are functionally, pollution. Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange. Much like your own, actually. Confer with http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In the "In Comments"…

Also don't use downvotes as an "I disagree" weapon, but rather a way to cull commentary that isn't contributing to the exchange --------------------------------------------- I fail to see where that part is reflected in the guidelines. The comment basically contradicted itself enough that I felt that they actually needed to explain themselves further. But as requested I will proceed to write a small thesis on why I t…

[deleted]

Re: Founders who can't code

#63

Post by alex_c »

lachyg wrote: post #12
alex_c wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to sound harsh, but that's at least in part because talk is cheap - everyone enjoys talking and brainstorming, but at some point you have to put your head down, get your hands dirty, and get through that last 10% of work that invariably takes 90% of the time. There's nothing wrong with what you enjoy doing - it's very valuable to have someone good at it - but there is a difference between a good sales/ma…

So you're saying that doing hardcore marketing and biz-dev isn't 'putting your head down'? If a fantastic technical founder programs a fantastic app, but no one finds out about it, what value is it? It needs to be in the hands of users! I believe that it's just as valuable (i'm not going to say 'if not more')

No, I believe that in an early-stage tech startup, each founder should be able to wear more than one hat, and be willing to do tasks they don't enjoy when necessary. The business founder should have some technical knowledge, and the tech founder should have some business knowledge. These aren't prerequisites for success, but they can give you a significant advantage.

Edit: reading your other replies, it doesn't really sound like we're disagreeing.

Re: Founders who can't code

#64

Post by mathgladiator »

nickpinkston wrote: post #54

There's a big difference between the HN stereotype and "real" business people. REAL non-technical co-founders: - Can raise funding and know funders well - Have a massive network of people to tap into - Can cold-call like no-one's business - Know how to negotiate a deal to the point of paranoia - Have deep domain experience and connections - Make plans for the future, but can pivot on a dime - Can talk enough tech to…

All those things are awesome after you have a product and or money to hire.

The people the comment was targeting were "idea people" who I must conclude are useless without any muscle/blood/sweat to turn an idea into a product.

Re: Founders who can't code

#65

Post by endlessvoid94 »

nickpinkston wrote: post #54

There's a big difference between the HN stereotype and "real" business people. REAL non-technical co-founders: - Can raise funding and know funders well - Have a massive network of people to tap into - Can cold-call like no-one's business - Know how to negotiate a deal to the point of paranoia - Have deep domain experience and connections - Make plans for the future, but can pivot on a dime - Can talk enough tech to…

I agree with you, however, I've experienced enough of this stereotype firsthand to basically dismiss most business-types immediately. It's just not worth my time to find the "real" business types, for the same reasons pg mentions in his essay [1].

[1] http://paulgraham.com/start.html

Re: Founders who can't code

#66

Post by wtn »

shadowsun7 wrote: post #52
alnayyir wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, so he overcame the necessity of this advice through that and the fact that the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case.

Nope this isn't accurate. It's true, but it's not accurate. You have to remember Fried is a web designer. So while he can't design, he has had experience working on things, launching things, talking to developers. And he's willing to put his money where his mouth is - he hired DHH to work on Basecamp, but only after he asked around, looking for help in learning to try to code it himself.

I saw Fried speak at Chicago CocoaHeads, a very technically skilled audience, about two years ago. His presentation was almost entirely a sales pitch for 37signals products, which I thought was very condescending and a missed opportunity.

Re: Founders who can't code

#67

Post by grantlmiller »

I've been doing web marketing for about 8 years now (SEO, PR, product, SEM, viral etc) and I'm currently the CMO of a great small internet company... and I completely agree with you. Even if you're not going to strike off and start a company within the next year, you'll still be able to understand basic structure and constraints of programming. I've done this myself (with decent, yet limited success) by taking advantage of the free Harvard course offered at CS75.tv Watch the lectures (they're entertaining), do the projects and if you catch up now you can even participate & interact with the class... democratization of knowledge at its best.

Re: Founders who can't code

#68

Post by melvinram »

nickpinkston wrote: post #54

There's a big difference between the HN stereotype and "real" business people. REAL non-technical co-founders: - Can raise funding and know funders well - Have a massive network of people to tap into - Can cold-call like no-one's business - Know how to negotiate a deal to the point of paranoia - Have deep domain experience and connections - Make plans for the future, but can pivot on a dime - Can talk enough tech to…

In addition to the above, a real business person can also be someone who is simply able to generate revenue through other means and can pay for development because they have a vision of a product they want to realize.

Though keep in mind that they might not be a good "co-founder" per say since they are likely going to want to own the whole thing as they are paying for development.

Re: Founders who can't code

#69

Post by nickpinkston »

mathgladiator wrote: post #64
nickpinkston wrote: post #54

There's a big difference between the HN stereotype and "real" business people. REAL non-technical co-founders: - Can raise funding and know funders well - Have a massive network of people to tap into - Can cold-call like no-one's business - Know how to negotiate a deal to the point of paranoia - Have deep domain experience and connections - Make plans for the future, but can pivot on a dime - Can talk enough tech to…

All those things are awesome after you have a product and or money to hire. The people the comment was targeting were "idea people" who I must conclude are useless without any muscle/blood/sweat to turn an idea into a product.

The problem is the "idea people" who can't execute - definitely. I too meet more of these wanna-be's than true hustlers, but the ability to sell and raise funds is VERY helpful BEFORE you have a product.

Hustlers find a way - bottom line.

Re: Founders who can't code

#70

Post by ndl »

I disagree with, "Note 1: If your idea is to build something truly technically challenging, then scratch my advice." If you want to build something technically challenging, you absolutely must learn the basics of whatever field it's in. You will not make a prototype this way, but you will be able to talk to someone who can without sounding like an idiot. You should study until you can prove that your idea is "challenging" rather than infeasible.

As a corollary, be weary of AI. If you are solving a problem with AI that you don't understand, assume the AI won't work.

On another note, maybe the real advice should just be "pick an easier project." I have a technical background but consider myself a hybrid business/hacker going forward. My current project is highly technical; I don't think I'd consider taking on a co-founder who didn't have some tech background.

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