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Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#61

Post by wilsonnb2 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56
remote_phone wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking to an oncologist yesterday. Her biggest frustration is that Silicon Valley billionaires are spending billions upon billions to send things to space, when there are serious problems on Earth that could be fought, most importantly cancer. It’s hard to argue with her. $400B/yr would fund a lot of research that would benefit humanity a lot better than a coordinated mission to Mars, even though it would be v…

This is a false dichotomy that always annoys me. It is entirely possible that by spending $400B to safely send people to Mars and live there, especially in a moderately high radiation environment, that we will discover EXACTLY the mechanisms that send cells into cancer states and how to reverse that so they stop. Otherwise we're going to have colonists getting cancer and dying too quickly. Then not only do we get to…

It's also entirely possible that the cure for all forms of cancer is a diet consisting entirely of frosted flakes, and that spending $400B researching the effects of all-cereal diets would also discover the cure for cancer.

However, it's far more likely that $400B in cancer research will do more for curing cancer than hoping for side effects from $400B in other research.

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#62

Post by partiallypro »

remote_phone wrote: post #43
ryanmercer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any exploratory drilling, or covering any real amount of ground, you need humans. For reference, Opportunity Rover has only traveled 45 km/28 mi in 14 years. A human can collect more specimens in a day than ALL of the rovers have to date. If we remove this year's launch window, you have 10 minimum-energy launch windows in the next 21 years. 2020, 2022, 2024, 2026, 2029, 2031, 2033, 2035, 2037, 2039. If we could g…

I was talking to an oncologist yesterday. Her biggest frustration is that Silicon Valley billionaires are spending billions upon billions to send things to space, when there are serious problems on Earth that could be fought, most importantly cancer. It’s hard to argue with her. $400B/yr would fund a lot of research that would benefit humanity a lot better than a coordinated mission to Mars, even though it would be v…

That assumes that more money equals more results in cancer (or any) research, which is just not true. We're already making huge breakthroughs in cancer research, research takes a lot of time.

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#63

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mirimir wrote: post #44
apo wrote: post #4

Here's the original paper (no paywall, and apparently not linked in the BBC article): http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/07/24/scien... A couple of highlights: My first thought was why couldn't this be some other liquid like CO2: We examined other possible explanations for the bright area below the SPLD (supplementary text). For example, a CO2 ice layer at the top or the bottom of the SPLD, or a very lo…

> ... we therefore find it plausible that a layer of perchlorate brine could be present at the base of the polar deposits. ... Damn! Water and oxidizer for rockets.

OK, but also, water that is undrinkable until refined.

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#64

Post by wilsonnb2 »

ryanmercer wrote: post #36
liberte82 wrote: post #11

Why don't we send a rover to some of these interesting places? It seems like we're constantly making fascinating finds on Mars, then send rovers to the middle of a random rocky desert.

For any exploratory drilling, or covering any real amount of ground, you need humans. For reference, Opportunity Rover has only traveled 45 km/28 mi in 14 years. A human can collect more specimens in a day than ALL of the rovers have to date. If we remove this year's launch window, you have 10 minimum-energy launch windows in the next 21 years. 2020, 2022, 2024, 2026, 2029, 2031, 2033, 2035, 2037, 2039. If we could g…

The real question here is why bother spending 1% of our GDP on space exploration? What tangible benefits is it going to bring, and why are those benefits worth more than the benefit that will come from spending 1% of our GDP on something else?

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#65

Post by wilsonnb2 »

megaman22 wrote: post #60
remote_phone wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking to an oncologist yesterday. Her biggest frustration is that Silicon Valley billionaires are spending billions upon billions to send things to space, when there are serious problems on Earth that could be fought, most importantly cancer. It’s hard to argue with her. $400B/yr would fund a lot of research that would benefit humanity a lot better than a coordinated mission to Mars, even though it would be v…

Fighting cancer is being the little Dutch boy sticking your finger in a dam. Adding a decade or so at the end of people's lives is great, but bodies break down, and you're going to be fighting a constant rear-guard action. Getting off this rock is the first step towards getting all of our eggs out of one basket.

> Getting off this rock is the first step towards getting all of our eggs out of one basket.

Yes it is, but why should I care whether all of our eggs are in one basket, or two baskets, or a million baskets? The survival of the human race as a whole is not a concern of mine.

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#66

Post by joshstrange »

keketi wrote: post #37
liberte82 wrote: post #11

Why don't we send a rover to some of these interesting places? It seems like we're constantly making fascinating finds on Mars, then send rovers to the middle of a random rocky desert.

NASA scientist: I built this space mission up from nothing. When I started, all I had was a martian lake! Other scientists said I was daft to send a rover into a lake, but I sent it all the same, just to show 'em! It sank into the lake, so I built a second one. That sank into the lake. I built a third one. It got stuck, fell over, and then it sank into the lake. But the fourth one floated! And that's what you're goin…

Love a good Monty Python reference even if most humor-only posts are discouraged on HN.

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#67

Post by greeneggs »

black_puppydog wrote: post #34
apo wrote: post #4

Here's the original paper (no paywall, and apparently not linked in the BBC article): http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/07/24/scien... A couple of highlights: My first thought was why couldn't this be some other liquid like CO2: We examined other possible explanations for the bright area below the SPLD (supplementary text). For example, a CO2 ice layer at the top or the bottom of the SPLD, or a very lo…

thanks for the link. I find it staggering that science reporters in these big outlets barely ever link to the original source and often don't even name the exact publication. This kind of writing could easily get students into trouble, why is it acceptable in post-graduate journalism? Links never hurt or confused anyone, and they make the page so much richer.

While your diatribe might sometimes be valid, in this case the link is there. It is the last sentence of the article: "The findings were reported in Science."

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#68

Post by Tushon »

hossbeast wrote: post #20
brlewis wrote: post #7

For those, like me, wondering how this is even possible: In order to remain liquid in such cold conditions (the research team estimate between -10 and -30 Celsius where it meets the ice above), the water likely has a great many salts dissolved in it.

It seems like, being under ground, it would also be subject a higher than normal pressure, which would also help

(not a scientist, but was skeptical of this statement given the general "incompressibility of water")

From looking at the phase change chart[0], you don't really get into the "interesting" stuff as far as pressure goes until pretty deep (something like 9-10km, from looking at some sample number of pressure at various depths [1]). Given that they indicated in the article that this is under 1.5km of ice, I don't think that's deep enough to have pressure significantly change it, but would be happy to learn that I'm not correct in my reading of this :)

0 - https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/60170/freezing-p... 1 - https://www.earthlearningidea.com/PDF/189_Pressure_rock.pdf - table on page 2

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#69

Post by lentil_soup »

ryanmercer wrote: post #48
remote_phone wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking to an oncologist yesterday. Her biggest frustration is that Silicon Valley billionaires are spending billions upon billions to send things to space, when there are serious problems on Earth that could be fought, most importantly cancer. It’s hard to argue with her. $400B/yr would fund a lot of research that would benefit humanity a lot better than a coordinated mission to Mars, even though it would be v…

Money is going into biotech fortunately though. Sam Altman started nudging YC towards biotech a few years ago (one article example https://www.wired.com/2015/11/y-combinator-sam-altman-interv... ) and to date has funded the following companies directly involved in cancer research and treatement: Cambridge Cancer Genomics, Oncobox, Mednet, HistoWiz, Luminist, iSono Health, Notable Labs. And I agree, cancer needs figur…

I agree with you, but I think money spent on iPad games is nothing compared to what's wasted in trying to kill each other, bailing bankers and other things that keep funding the 1%

Re: Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars

#70

Post by Quinner »

yellowapple wrote: post #53
ryanmercer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also quite possible Mars still has 'hot spots' as geologically it was very 'recently' volcanically active. Every now and then there's little anomalies that possibly hint at subsurface hot spots that might allow for hot springs and similar. In Robert Zubrin's fictional (but hard-science) book "First Landing" on the first manned Mars mission they actually find a hot spot and drill into it resulting in a geyser (w…

"that are a bit outdated now due to scientific discoveries, like finding the polar caps are lousy with water ice" They are? The north cap has more than 800,000 cubic kilometers of water in it. Not much compared to Earth, but in space terms that seems pretty abundant to me.

Lousy is used in this sense to mean "full of".
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