A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards • Hacker News Board

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#61

Post by ssivark » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:05 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #47

dooglius wrote: post #10

>Given that they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones Would students really do this? I couldn't imagine trying to write an entire essay or a lab report on a smartphone. Maybe Japanese schools don't have to turn in longer things like that?

As someone who recently worked in education... yes. Anecdotally, I tended to see it at the community-college level with students who owned a large-screen phone and didn't own a computer. I don't think anyone is writing whole research papers or serious lab reports on phones. A two-page reading response is totally doable. Something with footnotes or equations, not so much.

Yes, one can technically vomit out a few hundred words using a small touch screen. But the tools make it damn difficult to edit and re-organize text. Does this mean that all such reports are basically stream-of-consciousness writing instead of a more carefully polished piece of work?

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#62

Post by hocuspocus » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

imron wrote: post #32

> Young people who can’t use keyboards How is this different from previous generations? The examples listed (not knowing how to use a keyboard, not knowing how to double click and not knowing what a 'cell' in a spreadsheet is) were all extremely common among my classmates back in highschool (and this is talking about the 90's here, so computers were in fairly widespread use at this point). The new digital divide is j…

In the 2000's I had to write physics and chemistry lab reports, typically 4-5 pages long, with enough formulas that I ended up ditching Word and MathType for some basic LaTeX.

In maths I had to write Excel macros and Mathematica scripts.

I know that education in Japan is probably a bit more disconnected from reality compared to the pragmatism we see here, but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for college no?

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#63

Post by 21 » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

api wrote: post #27

nickserv wrote: post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

Even more important is the nature of PCs vs mobile devices. The mobile platform is designed to commoditize the user and create a stark division between users on one side and content and software creators on the other. You can't easily create anything of any substance on a mobile device and the ecosystem discourages it by e.g. treating user data as unimportant. PCs were designed to be devices for people to create thin…

> You can't easily create anything of any substance on a mobile device

The instagram community would like a word with you.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#64

Post by nimbius » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

as a blue collar engine tech, I dont think you can segment the part of the population that cant use a keyboard into old/young. I know plenty of people within my age that freeze up trying to type in something as simple as a first name. I work with veterans that cant search for a part number, or a make/model of a vehicle without pausing 5 seconds between keys. My typing speed is great, but its because I got into Linux and programming. The largest determination of your typing ability is whether you spend most of the day with your hands on a wrench or your fingers on a keyboard.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#65

Post by rntksi » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #45

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

Reading your comment really put the news article in proper context. Thanks.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#66

Post by laurieg » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #45

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

This is definitely a big factor. When you look at a Japanese computer keyboard [1] you might see lots of Japanese characters on the keys. Almost nobody actually uses these to type. Instead, if you want a か(ka) character then you type k,a on the familiar qwerty keys. These phonetic characters then get converted into the more complex Chinese-origin characters as you go along, allowing you to disambiguate homophones.

The flick keyboard removes the need for typing 2 Roman letters to make one Japanese letter, instead you just have a single flick. Almost all young people use the flick keyboard and I definitely think it is faster.

Cast your mind back to when you first encountered a computer keyboard. I remember hunting for seconds to find letters in this unfamiliar arrangement. This is where many Japanese young people are. There was never a computer in their house and now they are heavy mobile users. The qwerty keyboard is not everyday for a lot of people.

As to general computer literacy among Japanese teens: I teach a first year general English course at a Japanese university. The students are drawn from all different faculties so I feel it is a pretty good informal sample. I tried to get students to do an online survey by putting a web address on a slide. Over half do not know what a web address is and draw no distinction between search bar and address bar.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_input_methods#/media/...

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#67

Post by walshemj » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

mikebelanger wrote: post #31

FactolSarin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience with kids, it's not a choice. It's mostly poor kids who have this problem. Their family doesn't have a PC, and an old/cheap smartphone is the way they access the Internet.

Yeah definitely. A phone is considered much more necessary for basic functioning in a modern society - whereas the computer is a little 'extra'. Naturally poorer people only invest in the more basic, cheaper thing. I believe projects like Raspberry Pi were attempts to mitigate this issue too. Hopefully they gain more traction in society at large.

Well that's some of what it's doing now but originally it was for A Level students to get real experience in the two years of school before they went to university.

And A level students in STEM subjects are not typically from poor backgrounds.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#68

Post by paulryanrogers » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

During the fourth grade we were taught to type on keyboards, but only as one part of a computer class. I forgot how soon after. Once I got interested in PC gaming I learned to hunt and peck quicky, program batch files, and use macros.

Then I got a computer science degree and worked for almost two years as a programmer; typing by staring at keys using two fingers. When the time came it didn't take long to relearn 'proper' typing.

For some kids a little exposure to fundamentals at the right time is enough. And there is more to computing than input technique. So long as the kids are interested and motivated nature will find a way.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#69

Post by actsasbuffoon » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

radicaldreamer wrote: post #48

codingdave wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the age of the child. A toddler who is still exploring the world is one thing. A 14 year old who swipes at a book is a problem. (I don't know the age of the children from these anecdotes.) On the other hand, a toddler who explores the world as if it is a touch screen has been given way too much time on a touch screen. So there is definitely a problem there.

I highly doubt you'll find a 14 year old who swipes at a book... kids very quickly learn context and rules of physics. It's much harder when some screens are touch screens and some are not, however, but I see adults trying to swipe non-touch screens all the time (mall displays, ads, iMacs etc.)

I’m in my mid-thirties, and I have definitely tried to swipe my MacBook Pro screen a few times.

I don’t think it’s an indication of anything troubling. Sometimes you just get lost in what you’re reading and momentarily forget what device you’re using. If anything, I’m glad teens are so absorbed by reading. It was a struggle to get the teens of my generation to read anything!

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#70

Post by Noumenon72 » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #45

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

That's fascinating. Is the video representative of texting speed, or is this the fastest human in the world? Are they making choices that would take effort in a different system, or just clicking the next suggested letter?