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India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

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Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#61
I got curious about the role of Whatsapp in this whole incident and googled the actual incident:

https://in.news.yahoo.com/google-engineer-beaten-death-over-...

From this story it looks like Whatsapp was only used as a communication medium and not really the rumor mongering one. While I can understand some of the examples given the linked dw.com article, I don't see what could Whatsapp do in such cases? Should they block every offensive message?

So, for me this story sounds more like a low quality effort on part of the media. Once upon a time there used to be similar stories about how SMSes were being used for rumor mongering and spreading propaganda. And the major issue has always been ignored - education.

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#62
post #60
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we should actually thank WhatsApp for exposing an old problem that all have preferred to ignore or deny. WhatsApp isn't the problem, we Indians are and that needs fixing, not WhatsApp.

I get that it's trendy to shit on India especially by Indians itself but I absolutely can't wrap my head around your argument. India has its problems but asking a company to do something to remedy the problem a little is too much? Lynchings happened before and they will probably continue to happen but now they are happening much more frequently and the common messaging medium is WhatsApp but somehow your argument is…

> I get that it's trendy to shit on India especially by Indians itself

Patriotism is much more than vapid flag waving and silencing criticism. I know your heart is in a good place but I ask a little more good faith from you.

A close analogue asking WhatsApp to self censor is that of the Govt asking women to cover up more to avoid sexual assault. Going by your comment history I am sure that's not a solution you would like.

Its the years and years of band-aid that has gotten us here. Temporary fixes will continue to perpetuate the problem just as it has in the past. Things will get a little better and then we will forget about fixing the problem.

Regarding trigger happy lynch mobs -- The more we yield to problem children throwing tantrums worse they become.

WhatsApp has done noting wrong here, I don't think the burden of the fix should be on them. Detecting fake news would be a burden. Rate limiting as you suggested would be less of a burden, unless that is what gives them competitive advantage

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#63
post #35

Ever since Narendra Modi came to power - India has become Lynchistan. The Hindu supremacist leader and his organisation RSS that stands for ‘Cultural Nationalism’ is imposing ‘Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan’ - a monoculture which advocates ‘One Nation, One Language, One Religion’ for a country as diverse as India. The hate that is unleashed is consuming democracy slowly but surely. Future is indeed bleak for India. Many Hin…

This happened in the state of Karnataka, ruled by Congress, which is the opposition in the center. So whoever is blaming Modi for this crime, has no idea how the Indian political system is structured, nor do they know how the Law and Order is the responsibility of the state, or despite knowing all that they are either feigning ignorance or spreading false propaganda. Such lynchings have happened in India across state…

Cow lynchings, political lynchings, WhatsApp lynchings - many have direct connection with Hindutva organisations. Recently we had an RSS minister openly felicitating convicts of a cow lynching. That is the state of democracy in India. State governments are virtually powerless under Modi’s Raj.

Here is an up to date chronology of lynchings under Modi https://www.thequint.com/quintlab/lynching-in-india/

Let us stand firm against hatred in the name of religion and race. Stand for democracy - stand against authoritarianism.

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#64
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't find more historic data points, but extrapolating from 25 since May to 150 per year is a bad approach. There's a difference between: it's been always happening, and this is the most recent summary -vs- April 0, May 1, June 4, July 20.

What would be a better approach, inabsence of other data points?

Don't do analysis which assumes you can extrapolate.

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#65
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At present there is no law that criminalises mob killings Surely you're joking?

You’re talking about India: where slavery is alive and well, college girls are locked in at night and rape/domestic violence goes virtually unpunished, with police as “quality” as those in Afghanistan. VICE did a piece on this. Also, sectarian violence there is normal.

Also in the category of generic flamewars unsuitable for Hacker News: nationalistic ones. Can you stop these like we've asked you to stop the others?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#66
post #62
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that it's trendy to shit on India especially by Indians itself but I absolutely can't wrap my head around your argument. India has its problems but asking a company to do something to remedy the problem a little is too much? Lynchings happened before and they will probably continue to happen but now they are happening much more frequently and the common messaging medium is WhatsApp but somehow your argument is…

> I get that it's trendy to shit on India especially by Indians itself Patriotism is much more than vapid flag waving and silencing criticism. I know your heart is in a good place but I ask a little more good faith from you. A close analogue asking WhatsApp to self censor is that of the Govt asking women to cover up more to avoid sexual assault. Going by your comment history I am sure that's not a solution you would…

I am neither attempting to silence your criticism nor questioning your patriotism. I am actually not even interested in your or anyone else's patriotism. I called that out specifically because I find a lot of fellow citizens making wishy-washy claims, trying to state the obvious, completely loose the context and history of India and consequently miss the forest for the trees. There are a lot of cases where I can get behind utopian and long-term solutions such as in education or health but I digress when people's lives are at stake and certain situations, such as these lynchings, require short-term hard interventions.

I am not asking WhatsApp to censor itself nor will I back a government which makes such demands but there are certain situations where immediate pressing needs requires drastic interventions and asking WhatsApp to assist in this is not unreasonable. I get where you are coming from and this is no doubt a band-aid but in certain situations you can't really help it. Temporary fixes are necessary to abate the violence and the Indian police has demonstrated the value of these fixes in riot hit areas by cutting off the internet access and the situation is brought rapidly under control. In an ideal world, none of this would be necessary but neither would there be poverty nor social strife.

> WhatsApp has done noting wrong here, I don't think the burden of the fix should be on them.

WhatsApp has done nothing wrong but at the very least it has exacerbated the problem. WhatsApp is a victim of its own success in India. If not WhatsApp, there would be someone else. But whoever is in such a unique and powerful position can and should shoulder some of this responsibility. You can't be oblivious to a society's needs and continue to reap all profits.

>Detecting fake news would be a burden.

Facebook already does this for the news feed so it is not something they have to set up from scratch. Plenty of organisations in India would assist in dealing with the data. Of course the end-to-end encryption would be an issue.

>Rate limiting as you suggested would be less of a burden, unless that is what gives them competitive advantage.

WhatsApp is pretty much a monopoly in India. All other apps are pretty much non-existent for a vast chunk of the population. Even if people move to other platforms, there would only be a short period of time before those platforms are forced to make the same decisions as WhatsApp.

WhatsApp could do so much more to help out but the only thing they did was to mark the "forwarded" messages. And even that was a half-hearted attempt. Small grey text on a white background which is very easy to miss. Pffftt...

And are they not aware about the "Forwarded as received" trope?

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#67
post #66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get that it's trendy to shit on India especially by Indians itself Patriotism is much more than vapid flag waving and silencing criticism. I know your heart is in a good place but I ask a little more good faith from you. A close analogue asking WhatsApp to self censor is that of the Govt asking women to cover up more to avoid sexual assault. Going by your comment history I am sure that's not a solution you would…

I am neither attempting to silence your criticism nor questioning your patriotism. I am actually not even interested in your or anyone else's patriotism. I called that out specifically because I find a lot of fellow citizens making wishy-washy claims, trying to state the obvious, completely loose the context and history of India and consequently miss the forest for the trees. There are a lot of cases where I can get…

> WhatsApp could do so much more to help out but the only thing they did was to mark the "forwarded" messages. And even that was a half-hearted attempt. Small grey text on a white background which is very easy to miss. Pffftt...

See now that we see concrete demands now we can say whether we can agree. I can absolutely get behind UI hints to help navigate users. I am not an expert on this topic. I can see how things I think of being logical or even "obvious" are anything but. I've been wrong more times

> Temporary fixes are necessary to abate the violence and the Indian police has demonstrated the value of these fixes in riot hit areas by cutting off the internet access and the situation is brought rapidly under control.

Sorry, this is a hard no for me. BART did it. You don't want to go down this road.

> Of course the end-to-end encryption would be an issue.

You don't want to go down this road either. Once again, this "solves" the wrong problem. Be very wary of anyone who claims that weakening encryption is essential to security, short-term or long-term.

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#69

I got curious about the role of Whatsapp in this whole incident and googled the actual incident: https://in.news.yahoo.com/google-engineer-beaten-death-over-... From this story it looks like Whatsapp was only used as a communication medium and not really the rumor mongering one. While I can understand some of the examples given the linked dw.com article, I don't see what could Whatsapp do in such cases? Should they b…

This seems to be a decent accounting.

http://www.freepressjournal.in/india/karnataka-google-techie...

Re: India: Google engineer latest victim of mob lynchings fueled by WhatsApp rumors

#70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happened in the state of Karnataka, ruled by Congress, which is the opposition in the center. So whoever is blaming Modi for this crime, has no idea how the Indian political system is structured, nor do they know how the Law and Order is the responsibility of the state, or despite knowing all that they are either feigning ignorance or spreading false propaganda. Such lynchings have happened in India across state…

Cow lynchings, political lynchings, WhatsApp lynchings - many have direct connection with Hindutva organisations. Recently we had an RSS minister openly felicitating convicts of a cow lynching. That is the state of democracy in India. State governments are virtually powerless under Modi’s Raj. Here is an up to date chronology of lynchings under Modi https://www.thequint.com/quintlab/lynching-in-india/ Let us stand fi…

Why not have the count since 1947 to know if the "number of REPORTED LYNCHINGS" are going up or down?

either way, this thread is not going anywhere. I'm out of this conversation, since IMO HN is not the right place.

Post reply on HN