WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#61

Post by realusername » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #32

devit wrote: post #21

The real problem here is that after this stunt I'd like to completely stop using Whatsapp and switch to something else instead, but I can't because other people use Whatsapp and communicating with other people is essential to me. The problem is there no laws to stop whoever becomes the lucky recipient of such a network effect from doing whatever they want. Instead antitrust law needs to be expanded to consider networ…

Anti-trust laws need to stop obviously dominant players from buying up competitors. Facebook should have never been allowed to buy WhatsApp and Instagram - especially Instagram. It would've been so much better if Instagram got to be the main independent competitor (or even purchased by another company) to Facebook, than Facebook owning it. Facebook will keep making tens of billions of dollars in the coming years, eve…

It's crazy to think that if Snapchat accepted their offer, all the major social networks would be own by Facebook.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#62

Post by qeternity » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 1:12 PM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #51

qeternity wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What explanation is necessary? You've laid it out already. It's like saying you feel pressure to drive a gasoline powered car instead of a coal powered one because gasoline is much more convenient. The network effect arises out of superiority over competition. The social pressure is a result of everyone using the same platform, which itself is a testament to the product.

So, you are essentially saying that network effects don't exist, then, right? The idea of network effects is that they create a cost simply for individually choosing an uncommon option, after all other costs and benefits have been accounted for. Which would obviously imply that they create an incentive to choose a common option even if it were an inferior choice without the network effect, as long as the benefits of…

It may seem pedantic to you, but network effect creates a benefit, not a cost. That may create an opportunity cost for those not in the network, but it's not a direct cost. This distinction is actually very important.

Also, how did I imply network effect doesn't exist? Where did I say anything that you're implying I said? You're trying to strip out the network effect from this theoretical product and I'm saying you can't. Something can be superior simply bc of its network. Take the most obvious example, the internet. Where is your outrage? TCP/IP sucks. BGP sucks. But we embrace these things nonetheless because of the (literal) network.

This extends from computers to anthropology to biology. You're trying to make an apples to apples comparison assuming no network effect and I'm saying that's pointless.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#63

Post by Shish2k » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #39

yorwba wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They start out by building a superior product; then that product gets big; then they realize they need to monetize; then the product stops being superior, but it still has everyone's contacts, so most users stay; then the product keeps getting worse until it's unbearable and everyone switches to the most popular superior alternative... WhatsApp is currently in the "no longer superior" phase.

> then the product stops being superior, but it still has everyone's contacts, so most users stay You're just twisting words here. The fact that switching costs are too high means it's superior. You're defining superiority to be some very strict UX that you've decided. > then the product keeps getting worse until it's unbearable and everyone switches to the most popular superior alternative Exactly. Once it stops bei…

You're talking about superiority of experience (product + network), other people are talking about superiority of product, and saying that the network effect should be counted separately

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#64

Post by contras1970 » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #52

vageli wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does ubiquity equate to superiority? Popularity does not confer superiority.

Haha of course it does, though perhaps not to you. If there were a superior alternative, people would use it. You're just defining this problem so narrowly has only the app itself or something. It's the network, the integrations, the history, etc.

McDonald's has the best food, right?

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#65

Post by test6554 » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

What if the problem of auto-messaging is the potential for an infinite loop of message and auto-reply. That could cause a lot of headaches for whatsapp.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#66

Post by pjmlp » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

tabs_masterrace wrote: post #46

Remember when Instant Messaging protocols used to be open? When there was a multitude of clients for any given service to chose from? Now IM has left its early adopter stage and became an integral part of everybody's life, but in doing so we became stuck with 100% proprietary WhatsApp. Not undeserved, it works very well with billions of users, and is probably the most usable IM service ever made. But it became so big…

When was that? I always remember them being reversed engineered.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#67

Post by gmueckl » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

bodas wrote: post #35

thecatspaw wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, they dont interact with whatsapp directly, but indirectly through a android API. The android API cannot be covered by the whatsapp terms (which the developers never agreed to according to the title)

I don't believe that. They never installed Whatsapp? The intersection of people who build chat accessory apps and people who have never installed Whatsapp is surely empty.

Doesn't WhatsApp have separate terms for users and APIs? Would be weird if these were the same terms.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#68

Post by RandallBrown » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

bkor wrote: post #40

oliwarner wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying ~"We need more laws!" isn't enough. What do you specifically want here? We could demand that all network protocols are fair game for reverse-engineering to enable interoperability. Or mandate public specs and save everybody a bit of effort. But if it's my app —not the protocol or the service itself— that's generating revenue to pay for the whole thing (eg adverts), why is it fair to let people and other provid…

> why is it fair to let people and other providers usurp that? If you have a monopoly then there are various restrictions on what you can do. Whatsapp is pretty much the way to communicate within The Netherlands. Other companies which have a monopoly and/or huge market share (e.g. 2 companies which each have 40% of the market). This e.g. resulted in KPN (ADSL/VDSL) being forced to open up their infrastructure. I don'…

Don't you need someones phone number to use WhatsApp? What happens when you just text (SMS) someone instead? Do they refuse to respond?

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#69

Post by RandallBrown » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #66

tabs_masterrace wrote: post #46

Remember when Instant Messaging protocols used to be open? When there was a multitude of clients for any given service to chose from? Now IM has left its early adopter stage and became an integral part of everybody's life, but in doing so we became stuck with 100% proprietary WhatsApp. Not undeserved, it works very well with billions of users, and is probably the most usable IM service ever made. But it became so big…

When was that? I always remember them being reversed engineered.

I remember a short time after AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, ICQ, etc. had fallen out of favor and Google Chat used XMPP and I think even Facebook used it.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#70

Post by ReverseCold » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #42

Freak_NL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks. Here in the Netherlands, WhatsApp is used by the vast majority of people. The holdouts (like me) consist of people who don't want to deal with smartphones (some elderly, some who deliberately avoid them because of addictive behaviour), or who own a smartphone, but don't agree with WhatsApp's terms of use (essentially paying for access with your data). Not using WhatsApp has consequences. We sometimes miss o…

> To participate in some parts of society WhatsApp is now a de facto requirement. A whole nation blindly agrees to whatever terms of use Facebook drafts. Same if you don't have a Facebook account. Speaking of which, WhatsApp was the defacto IM standard before it was bought by Facebook. Previously it was MSN Messenger (or whatever it is called these days. Skype?) and that was horrible as well. XMMP was at least federa…

> There are some people who push for an alternative called Telegram, which uses home brew cryptography instead of established standards.

No, it might as well have no end-end cryptography.

The crypto is only enabled for "Secret Chats" and Calls, and I have never seen anyone actually use the secret chat functionality. Using a secret chat limits you to one device and blocks features like bots, so most people don't want to use it.