150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees • Hacker News Board

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#61

Post by badminton1 » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

The dilemma of intolerance is that tolerating intolerance makes you intolerant.

Some forms of intolerance: believing in gender superiority, a caste system, exceptionalism based on ethnicity or country of origin. If you believe in those things, you might have a tolerance problem, no matter where you are from.

I try to be as tolerant as possible, and do not have negative views against immigration. But if you are intolerant I will have a hard time getting along if you openly express those views or if you apply those at work.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#62

Post by coldtea » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #29

djrogers wrote: post #6

This is one of the enormous penalties we as a nation have to pay because neither of our political parties actually wants to solve the illegal immigration issue. Republicans get to use ‘illegal immigrants taking jobs’ as a stick to beat democrats with, and progressives use cries of racism to rally support amongst Latino voters. Meanwhile anyone who espouses common sense ideas such as reforming our immigration policy g…

> Meanwhile anyone who espouses common sense ideas such as reforming our immigration policy gets called a racist and ‘anti-immigrant’. First: total strawman. Second: not even relevant to the issue at hand. There is, to first approximation, exactly zero undocumented immigration among "Indian immigrants with advanced degrees" so I'm having a very, very hard time imaging how this is an "enormous penalty" we have to pay…

You kind of already made the parent's point for them. You didn't call it out explicitly, but you're already implying they are racist.

>Second: not even relevant to the issue at hand. There is, to first approximation, exactly zero undocumented immigration among "Indian immigrants with advanced degrees" so I'm having a very, very hard time imaging how this is an "enormous penalty" we have to pay for failing to solve the "illegal immigration issue".

The "issue at hand" the parent discussed is immigration in general. Not "Indian immigrants with advanced degrees" immigration only, even if TFA is about that. Posts on HN are taken with liberty as starting points of a discussion, and the parent never mentioned that they constrain their observation to only concern "Indian immigrants with advanced degrees", so your response is disingenuous.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#63

Post by ng12 » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

Isn't it a false assumption that immigrant workers should eventually get Green Cards? The whole point of the H1B system is to temporarily fill shortages of skilled workers, not to be a path for permanent immigration.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#64

Post by merpnderp » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

scarejunba wrote: post #43

djrogers wrote: post #6

This is one of the enormous penalties we as a nation have to pay because neither of our political parties actually wants to solve the illegal immigration issue. Republicans get to use ‘illegal immigrants taking jobs’ as a stick to beat democrats with, and progressives use cries of racism to rally support amongst Latino voters. Meanwhile anyone who espouses common sense ideas such as reforming our immigration policy g…

[flagged]

Weird and here I thought a path to citizenship had broad Republican support, they just want it tied to stronger checks on who enters.

But keep winning votes and changing minds by calling your opposition racists and bigots. That will win your votes.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#65

Post by UncleEntity » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #55

fjsolwmv wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probability doesn't really work that way. There are complex factors that go into the calculation, for any set of policies. Every policy discriminates somehow, except completely unrestricted system.

I think it's fair to discriminate on skills than geographical area of birth. We call the first merit, and the second some ism. Also, if we discriminate on merit, then racism is also fine? Maybe we should only discriminate on an individual level and with the attributes that individual has under his control.

> Also, if we discriminate on merit, then racism is also fine?

They can "limit" based on skills, they can "limit" based on country of origin with the main difference being not using the hot-button word "discrimination" to, err...discriminate between the two while implying some sinister race-based system of visa allocation.

> Maybe we should only discriminate on an individual level and with the attributes that individual has under his control.

They you'd be "discriminating" against people who can't afford advanced degrees from prominent schools who just want to work hard so their children can have a better life like the countless number of first-generation citizens I've met over the years. This is where I'd put a "why you hate poor people?" to make my point but I know that's not what you're arguing.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#66

Post by cfadvan » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #54

cfadvan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can limit immigration fairly. But don't tell me I have a lesser chance of working in USA than a Kenyan and that's not discrimination. You as one of over a billion people from the same country will understandably have more competition than a Kenyan who is competing with under 50 million countrymen. Overall more Indians have a chance of working in the US than Kenyans, but the pools drawn from are at least an order…

And that's how you are discriminating on the basis of geographical area of birth. Why isn't the system oblivious to one's country of origin?

The idea is to give people from all over the world an equal shot, not to just skew in favor of one or two high population demographics. You can call that discrimination if you like, but in the “discriminating tastes” sense not the KKK sense. The alternative is to discriminate (in the negative sense) against people who don’t come from a population in the billions.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#67

Post by rohit2412 » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

UncleEntity wrote: post #65

rohit2412 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fair to discriminate on skills than geographical area of birth. We call the first merit, and the second some ism. Also, if we discriminate on merit, then racism is also fine? Maybe we should only discriminate on an individual level and with the attributes that individual has under his control.

> Also, if we discriminate on merit, then racism is also fine? They can "limit" based on skills, they can "limit" based on country of origin with the main difference being not using the hot-button word "discrimination" to, err...discriminate between the two while implying some sinister race-based system of visa allocation. > Maybe we should only discriminate on an individual level and with the attributes that individ…

All of these are good discussions to be had, maybe we should have a single global democratic secular government too.

But in no way is the biases or diarciminations in a "fair" merit based system a justification for the discrimination based on country of birth, like in the current system.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#68

Post by fzeroracer » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #62

ajross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile anyone who espouses common sense ideas such as reforming our immigration policy gets called a racist and ‘anti-immigrant’. First: total strawman. Second: not even relevant to the issue at hand. There is, to first approximation, exactly zero undocumented immigration among "Indian immigrants with advanced degrees" so I'm having a very, very hard time imaging how this is an "enormous penalty" we have to pay…

You kind of already made the parent's point for them. You didn't call it out explicitly, but you're already implying they are racist. > Second: not even relevant to the issue at hand. There is, to first approximation, exactly zero undocumented immigration among "Indian immigrants with advanced degrees" so I'm having a very, very hard time imaging how this is an "enormous penalty" we have to pay for failing to solve t…

He was making an inherently disingenuous claim that anyone arguing for immigration reform is called a racist. I have discussed with people the issues in our immigration system and ways to fix it and not once have I been called racist.

Whenever I see someone make that claim, in my experience it's because they've been in favor of racist policies and when called out on it, tend to try and shift the argument into people being against immigration reform period.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#69

Post by UncleEntity » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #67

UncleEntity wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, if we discriminate on merit, then racism is also fine? They can "limit" based on skills, they can "limit" based on country of origin with the main difference being not using the hot-button word "discrimination" to, err...discriminate between the two while implying some sinister race-based system of visa allocation. > Maybe we should only discriminate on an individual level and with the attributes that individ…

All of these are good discussions to be had, maybe we should have a single global democratic secular government too. But in no way is the biases or diarciminations in a "fair" merit based system a justification for the discrimination based on country of birth, like in the current system.

Actually, it does sound fair to me -- or at least as fair as it can get.

Individually it may suck if you come from a country with a large population like China or India but overall it gives people from all over the globe the chance to emigrate without having to directly compete with the large numbers of visa seekers from these countries.

I honestly can't think of a more egalitarian immigration policy.

Re: 150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees

#70

Post by guitarbill » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

mFixman wrote: post #60

toweringgoat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ. There are places with Bay Area style salaries, there are other places with lower salaries - either way, you'll be living a comfortable life since costs will be lower than Bay Area. You'll universally find a much better healthcare system (e.g. health insurance not tied to your employer), with the exception of the UK. You'll find a humane immigration system that doesn't kick you out if yo…

None of those places have anywhere near Bar Area salaries: London, by far the city with the highest salaries in the West outside of the US, has salaries that are 70% of the ones you'd get in California before counting a significant amount of extra income and sales taxes and almost similarly ridicolous housing. On the other hand, the private insurance in the UK that's usually included in big tech companies' work is ab…

In absolute values, those salaries are the highest, but for quality of living, that's largely irrelevant unless your hobbies need large amounts of capital.

For example, in big cities in Europe, you can easily and happily get by without a car, which saves a lot. You have more vacation. No tipping. Easier/more obvious ways to save for retirement. Your kids not having to do active shooter drills at school. Cheaper/free schools and universities. Maternal/paternal leave. Etc, etc.

So if you have a family, or thinking of starting a family, it's worth factoring that stuff in.