Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece • Hacker News Board

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#61

Post by salex89 » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

Keyframe wrote: post #57

salex89 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serb here, not sure why would anyone "mix up" macedonians and serbs in any context, and why is a bigger differentiation necessary. Even in the bloodiest years on the Balkans, the relations were very reasonable. Today in Serbia, even the most nationalistic groups (of any kind of influence), don't take Northern Macedonia in discussion. The relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia were a bit more bumpy, I don't know all…

It's maybe important to note that these disputes (and possible disputes) with Bulgaria, Greece and maybe(?) Serbia have almost none impact whatsoever on the daily lives of anyone in the region there. No animosity, no nothing basically apart from politically organised rallies here and there. Situation with albanians on the other hand... is interesting.

Absolutely. I mean, there are all sorts of fruitcakes all around the Balkans, but in general, things do carry on peacefully. A lot of political points are gathered on everyday stupidities between Serbian and Croatian politicians, to be honest, but that is another story.

The situation with Albanians in Macedonia is disconcerting, at least from a Serb's perspective. It is just too easy to notice a pattern of behaviour, incidents and evenrs, and almost threatening stance, even in some comments here regarding the Albanian majority in Macedonia. Serbia has been through that and handled it poorly, and I'm afraid that Norhtern Macedonia is on the same slippery slope.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#62

Post by Keyframe » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

salex89 wrote: post #61

Keyframe wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's maybe important to note that these disputes (and possible disputes) with Bulgaria, Greece and maybe(?) Serbia have almost none impact whatsoever on the daily lives of anyone in the region there. No animosity, no nothing basically apart from politically organised rallies here and there. Situation with albanians on the other hand... is interesting.

Absolutely. I mean, there are all sorts of fruitcakes all around the Balkans, but in general, things do carry on peacefully. A lot of political points are gathered on everyday stupidities between Serbian and Croatian politicians, to be honest, but that is another story. The situation with Albanians in Macedonia is disconcerting, at least from a Serb's perspective. It is just too easy to notice a pattern of behaviour,…

Maybe people don't remember, but there was an actual armed conflict within Macedonia only 17 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_insurgency_in_the_Republi... which ended with the Ohrid Agreement which current prime minister of Macedonia, Zaev, said to annul and introduce albanian as the second official language in the (North) Macedonia. That's the real situation at hand in Macedonia now (and then). What situation with Greece did was to inhibit Macedonia's accession to NATO (and EU) which would reduce the threat of reopening possible future armed conflicts. Interesting times ahead for North Macedonia, that's for sure.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#63

Post by pavlov » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

mkempe wrote: post #10

pavlov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Massachusetts change its name because the Massachusett people are not an ethnic majority there? Just like US states, most European borders are not drawn according to ethnic groups, and their names are similarly historical rather than descriptive. The nation state is a 19th century fantasy.

Are there three other "Massachusetts"-named states bordering the current Massachusetts? [edit] Maine is not called "North Massachusetts". As for your belief that European borders are unrelated to ethnic/cultural distinctions, do you know much about Europe? [edit: blocked from replying] Were there truly no pre-19th century differences between the peoples and cultures in Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Russia? and no-pre…

Ok, I'll try to reply to your 'edit3' examples.

In my mind Finland and France are examples of European countries that have pretended very hard at some point in their history to be single-ethnicity nation states counter to how the actual population sees themselves.

France is named after the Franks, but if you went back in time to 1700 and asked random people within the country's boundaries the question "What's your ethnic group?", the answers you'd get would include Breton, Basque, Catalan, Provencal, Alsatian, etc. — a minority of people within the Kingdom of France would identify primarily as "French" (and nobody would have heard of the Franks, a people that existed a millennium earlier).

If you asked that same question in Finland in 1700, you'd find a lot of people who identify as Swedes. And why shouldn't they? It was an eastern province of Sweden where every modestly educated person spoke Swedish. You'd also find people who identify as Sami, Karelian, etc.

Flash forward to newly independent Finland of 1918, and you'll find politicians who are adamant that it's a nation state. Yet descendants of those Swedish-speaking people are still there, and so are the Sami speakers, the Karelian speakers, and so on. Some of them will identify as Finns while others never do.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#64

Post by russellbeattie » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #53

pavlov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States. There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

I know this is always unpopular but, how about the name America? I refer to the country south of me as "the US" or "the USA". To me as a Canadian I live in the Americas so I could be an American. Growing up nobody I knew called the US "America" you'd even hear "the Boston States", I have no clue how that originated. But I've noticed over the past decade or two it's become more common for people in the US to refer to…

The terms America and Americans have been used for hundreds of years, not just the last decade or two. I've had this same conversation with Mexicans and people from South America. The U.S. was the first independent country in the Americas recognized by foreign countries and remained the only one for many years. The term American had been used by the British for years to refer to the colonies, and was adopted by the country itself.

In his farewell address, George Washington said this: "The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation."

More than that, this is just what citizens of the U.S. are called. New Zealanders are Kiwis and Brits are Brits and Canadians are Canadians. Every nationality has a name, this is ours. The continents shouldn't be called America anyways, as Amerigo Vespuci had little to do with its discovery or exploration, but that's the way it is.

In other words, this isn't some evil American power grab, and an insult to the rest of our Western Hemisphere neighbors, but a quirk of history that won't change any time soon.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#65

Post by interdrift » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55

interdrift wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not as stupid as you might think. FYROM was part of Bulgaria for a very long time. Lots of history of the empires happend there, they claim that it's theirs. Same for Alexander Macedon(he's obviously greek). If you claim some identity in front of many people you must be able to support it otherwise you end up looking like a fool. Imagine a nation of such deluded by the system people.

> Same for Alexander Macedon (he's obviously greek) Alexander III of Macedon died in 323 B.C. That's 2,300 years ago. Turning a millennium-and-a-half footnote into a geopolitical issue is stupid. > If you claim some identity in front of many people you must be able to support it otherwise you end up looking like a fool Greece's per-capita GDP is three-quarters that of Europe's average [1]. Macedonia's is less than on…

A lot of these things are not about wealth, they are about identity. Wealth is much easier to create than identity.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#66

Post by pavlov » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #51

pavlov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both cases, the bigger and more powerful side got to keep the plain name and the other side had to settle for a geographic prefix.

As I understand it, both sides had prefixes: Baja and Alta. After the US took Alta California, they dropped that prefix. Mexico was never forced to add one.

They dropped the prefix because Mexico wasn't in a position to object. I wouldn't be surprised if many expected at the time that the newly founded US state would annex Baja eventually.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#67

Post by misev » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

interdrift wrote: post #59

Keyframe wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. It seems to be dangerous to paint broad strokes like that. My immediate heritage is german, italian and croatian and am from Croatia, speak croatian and live there/here. Yet, I understand 90% of macedonian and probably 70% of bulgarian without ever learning either language. Where is the line then? Since I was born here and learned this language as my first, yet not anyone from my family (grandparents an…

Bulgarian and Macedonian are way similar than say Croatian and Macedonian. Genetically we are the same. Your example is not on point(both about Sofia and your origin)

Any source for the "genetically same" claim? To me Bulgarians look fairly distinct from Macedonians, although I'm not certain if that's any strong genetic indicator.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#68

Post by abnry » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #53

pavlov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States. There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

I know this is always unpopular but, how about the name America? I refer to the country south of me as "the US" or "the USA". To me as a Canadian I live in the Americas so I could be an American. Growing up nobody I knew called the US "America" you'd even hear "the Boston States", I have no clue how that originated. But I've noticed over the past decade or two it's become more common for people in the US to refer to…

To be fair, the USA is the only country with America in it's name. And what would you call people who live in the United States other than Americans? Hop, skip and a jump to calling the place Americans live America.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#69

Post by dang » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #27

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9

I have been to Northern Greece. I have friends from Macedonia. This is the stupidest international dispute I think our reality can support.

Oh, my sweet summer child. Your innocence is so beautiful. Never underestimate the degree of stupidity our reality can support.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. Also please don't make disagreements personal.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#70

Post by cautionarytale » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

If a Canadian state decided to rename itself Maine, pretty sure Americans would have zero f*s to give about it. To quote Peter Griffin, "Who cares?!!".