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US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

zdnet.com

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Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#61

Post by random6547545 »

avoutthere wrote: post #59
random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

How can one prevent this and still carry a cell phone? Would keeping one's phone in a faraday bag defeat this constant tracking?

Yes. But switching off location will probably do it too.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#62

Post by John_KZ »

yosito wrote: post #55
John_KZ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to do this without using your own antenna network. Even then, you need encryption just to anonymize your calls, but if you end up talking to people subscribed to the same carriers you're trying to avoid, you can trivially be de-anonymized by timing attacks. So there's no good solution, unless you're willing to turn your calls to voice mail. More practical solutions would include: -(physically) Powered…

It used to be possible to buy prepaid SIM cards with cash and not have to provide any identification. AFAIK, this isn't possible anymore. Does anyone know for sure?

The providers in our country require ID. I think there was an EU directive in 2006 that gradually forced all providers to require identification. Of course this doesn't stop criminals in the slightest, they just get second hand SIMs registered by homeless or just SIMs from outside the EU, so it was a pointless law with regards to reducing crime, but if the goal was more surveillance they did ok.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#63

Post by matwood »

tekstar wrote: post #48
random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

Is this happening with iPhone as well, or primarily android due to the third party nature of the hardware?

The problem is once it's at the cell carrier level it doesn't even matter if you use a dumb phone. They know roughly where you are based on tower triangulation.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#65

Post by random6547545 »

tekstar wrote: post #48
random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

Is this happening with iPhone as well, or primarily android due to the third party nature of the hardware?

It's android for the hardware manufacturers and OS crapware getting location data.

For iOS, assume every app using your location is selling the data. That means every app using a map or location smoothing SDK (GPS jumps around, there are services to smooth it out), since the map SDK providers (and there's not many) are selling your data even if the app itself isn't.

Google, Apple, Microsoft etc are pretty careful for good reason. Anyone below that is probably selling it.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#66

Post by crankylinuxuser »

matwood wrote: post #63
tekstar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this happening with iPhone as well, or primarily android due to the third party nature of the hardware?

The problem is once it's at the cell carrier level it doesn't even matter if you use a dumb phone. They know roughly where you are based on tower triangulation.

As an amateur radio operator, I would expect nothing less for carrying a highly networked radio transceiver with loads of sensors including geopositioning.

Simply put: don't want to be tracked? Put your phone in a lead sealed box or leave it at home. Tracking only tracks the phone , not your person.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#67

Post by netsharc »

yosito wrote: post #55
John_KZ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to do this without using your own antenna network. Even then, you need encryption just to anonymize your calls, but if you end up talking to people subscribed to the same carriers you're trying to avoid, you can trivially be de-anonymized by timing attacks. So there's no good solution, unless you're willing to turn your calls to voice mail. More practical solutions would include: -(physically) Powered…

It used to be possible to buy prepaid SIM cards with cash and not have to provide any identification. AFAIK, this isn't possible anymore. Does anyone know for sure?

Laws are everywhere to prevent this, because without ID, a terrorist can buy a SIM card and put it in his GSM-controlled IED. Not sure how strong it is being enforced though, the terrorist can just give a homeless guy a few bucks to buy a SIM card for him. IIRC when I bought a SIM card in an Asian country I went to visit, the seller just entered her ID number into the system.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#68

Post by gruez »

random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

>It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually not in software but by contract, one gives gps data to all the others as part of the bill of materials.

so what's the flow here? is it something like this?: phone gps -> manufacturer installed crapware app -> crapware server -> (various third parties)

wouldn't this be mitigated if you use a custom ROM like lineageos?

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#69

Post by wmeredith »

dwighttk wrote: post #56
emodendroket wrote: post #38

> Kevin Bankston, director of New America's Open Technology Institute, explained in a phone call that the Electronic Communications Privacy Act only restricts telecom companies from disclosing data to the government. It doesn't restrict disclosure to other companies, who then may disclose that same data to the government. It seems like intelligence services spend a lot of their time dreaming up ways to do an end-run…

I'd rather them try to do end-runs around the law than run it up the gut... (If I had to choose)

False dichotomy. There are a million choices.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#70

Post by awelkie »

avoutthere wrote: post #59
random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

How can one prevent this and still carry a cell phone? Would keeping one's phone in a faraday bag defeat this constant tracking?

I don't think it's possible through technological means to avoid being tracked and still use a wireless network. Even if you could anonymously authenticate to the network, if the base stations have a large number of antennas then they can locate the physical origin of your signal and track you that way.

It may be possible of course through other means, like government regulation or only using carriers that have some guarantee of privacy.

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