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Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

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Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#61

Post by strictnein »

djhworld wrote: post #57
flyinglizard wrote: post #8

I wouldn’t say that developing military hardware necessarily negates the “don’t be evil” principal (especially if the developed articles are dual use, for both military and civilian applications). The western world, our principals and values have prospered for more than half a century in Pax Americana afforded, in a large part, by the prosperous US Military Industrial Complex. I totally get the objection to developin…

> negates the “don’t be evil” principal I'm trying to find on their website about this principle and it doesn't seem to be there in their "values" section https://www.google.com/about/ Did they take it out?

Years ago.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#62

Post by obelix_ »

mr_rheee wrote: post #39

I've been asked to work for military industry companies before. And I have always declined for ethical reasons. But as I sit here and think about it, I wonder if its a good thing that a person like myself (that believes I'm on the ethical high-ground) decline these types of jobs. Someone is going to take the job. Perhaps someone less skilled than myself, perhaps someone less ethical than myself ? What is the result o…

It's not complicated. Stick to your values. When you work on stuff that you feel ambiguous about, you aren't going to be doing you best work.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#64

Post by mr_rheee »

djhworld wrote: post #52
mr_rheee wrote: post #39

I've been asked to work for military industry companies before. And I have always declined for ethical reasons. But as I sit here and think about it, I wonder if its a good thing that a person like myself (that believes I'm on the ethical high-ground) decline these types of jobs. Someone is going to take the job. Perhaps someone less skilled than myself, perhaps someone less ethical than myself ? What is the result o…

It depends on how much of an impact you'll think you can make, I'm always of the mind that these defence contractors primary motivations are what their customers desire (i.e. military), rather than making considerations for anyone on staff.

I guess when you work in an industry where what you create or do is done for killing, as a person, you must have crossed some line of what is okay to do for yourself. Similar to people who remote control 'drones'. And at that point, I would think your will to try and change what the company is doing is very small.

On that note, I jumped back off the fence. Not for me.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#65

Post by walshemj »

sametmax wrote: post #49
whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

But again this assume the people giving order to the drone are the good guys. But I never seen any good guys in my history books or in the news. Hence I always assume, when given a power to somebody, that the person doesn't have my best interest in mind. Let's all remember it's possible any of our country become one day a dictatorship. Just because we enjoyed a lot of freedom for the last decades doesn't exempt us fr…

Well for a counter argument what about the guys who ordered norsk hydro (Heavy Water Plant) air raids and commando raids?

The resistance team sank a ship with 18 civilian casualties also the previous unsucsessfull air raids killed more than that.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#66

Post by typomatic »

mr_rheee wrote: post #39

I've been asked to work for military industry companies before. And I have always declined for ethical reasons. But as I sit here and think about it, I wonder if its a good thing that a person like myself (that believes I'm on the ethical high-ground) decline these types of jobs. Someone is going to take the job. Perhaps someone less skilled than myself, perhaps someone less ethical than myself ? What is the result o…

> I've been asked to work for military industry companies before. And I have always declined for ethical reasons. But as I sit here and think about it, I wonder if its a good thing that a person like myself (that believes I'm on the ethical high-ground) decline these types of jobs. > > Someone is going to take the job. Perhaps someone less skilled than myself, perhaps someone less ethical than myself ? What is the result of that ?

Whenever I find myself in this line of thought, I always remember: I am not that special. The impact that anyone has on a workplace is small and mostly inconsequential--more important is group momentum and culture. The likelihood that you'd do bad in a bad workplace is much higher than that you'd be able to stand fast and do good--the world just does not work that way.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#67

Post by wyldfire »

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

> Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people.

"Full of"? The world is more peaceful than it's ever been. Extremists do hurt innocent people, and we should not ignore them. But with each choice that we need to make, we should carefully consider pros and cons. Is there really a net benefit here?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#68

Post by everdev »

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

I applaud your morality. In terms of moving the needle towards a more moral world, do you think employee resignations have a positive effect or does it create a less moral survivor bias where the people who are left have fewer limits or concerns?

I'm sure disclosure would be illegal per your employee contract, but are there any other steps concerned employees can take?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#69

Post by [deleted] »

djhworld wrote: post #57
flyinglizard wrote: post #8

I wouldn’t say that developing military hardware necessarily negates the “don’t be evil” principal (especially if the developed articles are dual use, for both military and civilian applications). The western world, our principals and values have prospered for more than half a century in Pax Americana afforded, in a large part, by the prosperous US Military Industrial Complex. I totally get the objection to developin…

> negates the “don’t be evil” principal I'm trying to find on their website about this principle and it doesn't seem to be there in their "values" section https://www.google.com/about/ Did they take it out?

[deleted]

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#70

Post by mr_rheee »

obelix_ wrote: post #62
mr_rheee wrote: post #39

I've been asked to work for military industry companies before. And I have always declined for ethical reasons. But as I sit here and think about it, I wonder if its a good thing that a person like myself (that believes I'm on the ethical high-ground) decline these types of jobs. Someone is going to take the job. Perhaps someone less skilled than myself, perhaps someone less ethical than myself ? What is the result o…

It's not complicated. Stick to your values. When you work on stuff that you feel ambiguous about, you aren't going to be doing you best work.

Yeah, you're right. I quickly realized that after posting my comment.
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