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Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

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Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#61

Post by eveningcoffee »

paulcole wrote: post #59
eveningcoffee wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you want to work till death then be my guest. If you believe that society should somehow support their old then I think that one should provide at least one replacement. If you expect that somebodies else children should support you then I question your sanity. Why should they choose to do so? If you think that you will be supported by riches you collect during your life time then keep in mind that riches ar…

How does forcing kids to care for dying parents have any impact on the sustainability/environmental impact of having kids. > If you expect that somebodies else children should support you then I question your sanity. Why should they choose to do so? Why are you so sure your own kids would choose to do so? Aren't you making a hundred-thousand-dollar-plus child-rearing bet that they'll feel guilty enough to care for yo…

>Aren't you making a hundred-thousand-dollar-plus child-rearing bet that they'll feel guilty enough to care for you?

This is not how the things work.

>Why not just spend that money on a paid caretaker?

Lets imagine that single generation just stops having children. Where exactly does this caretaker come from?

Now imagine that just half does so. What will happen to the economic output and therefore with the accumulated value (money, stock, real estate) you plan to use to pay for these services? If the society is struggling to just keep up with itself then where exactly does this caretaker come from?

Economy is not a fixed state. It is a living organism. Riches are imaginary. If you have no sustainable economy then your riches will vanish.

>Just because other people are making a bad decision doesn't mean you have to make it, too.

I was pointing out that if sustainable thinking just dies out then perhaps that is not the outcome you would expect.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#62

Post by insickness »

tathougies wrote: post #53
insickness wrote: post #42

> But the 68% increase from 2002 to 2015 in the incel share of the male, never-married, 22-35-year-old population is mostly due to a decline in marriage, not never-married men having less sex. The authors of this article admit that involuntary celibacy is rising among young men. They admit that 20% of the men are having 60% of the sex while incels claim it's 80%--not that much of a difference. Marriage is declining--…

> cut off from the sexual marketplace. Sex is not a marketplace, and it's not surprising that people who view it as such aren't having sex. It's like trying to learn to play the piano using the theory of relativity.

Of course sex is a marketplace. There's a hierarchy with most attractive people at the top, least attractive people at the bottom. There's more agreement than disagreement about which people are "more attractive" and "less attractive"--but there is some disagreement. Maybe a woman I find very attractive, you don't find attractive at all (assuming you are attracted to women). Everyone is competing to find the most attractive/compatible mate. They bypass the less attractive/compatible and go after (or accept dates with) more attractive people. And due to the fact that more attractive people are a scarcer resource, there is a market competition. Yeah, you could say we live in a world where anyone has an equal shot at being with anyone, but we both know that's not true. Sex is a marketplace to some extent or another.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#63

Post by gumby »

mlindner wrote: post #55
gumby wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the downside or "the way of Japan"? They had a terrible 20 year economic hangover due to a massive bubble poorly handled, and that definitely had massive negative social spillover effects. But over the past 15 years social surveys have shown increasing (and solidly net positive) happiness and satisfaction with the quality of life across all demographic groups except the extremely old. Notably, over the past de…

The downside of "the way of Japan" is that they'll shortly have no one to pay for all the old people. Keeping old people alive is expensive. In the US young people pay old people's social security income. You see how many people are talking about the aging baby boomers right? Imagine that but much worse.

Increased labor productivity through automation (and allowing people to live longer on their own through assistive devices) should ameliorate this.

There's no shortage of young people globally so Japan could always import more if they wanted to.

Again, a pyramid-based model can't go on forever.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#64

Post by paulcole »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #61
paulcole wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does forcing kids to care for dying parents have any impact on the sustainability/environmental impact of having kids. > If you expect that somebodies else children should support you then I question your sanity. Why should they choose to do so? Why are you so sure your own kids would choose to do so? Aren't you making a hundred-thousand-dollar-plus child-rearing bet that they'll feel guilty enough to care for yo…

> Aren't you making a hundred-thousand-dollar-plus child-rearing bet that they'll feel guilty enough to care for you? This is not how the things work. > Why not just spend that money on a paid caretaker? Lets imagine that single generation just stops having children. Where exactly does this caretaker come from? Now imagine that just half does so. What will happen to the economic output and therefore with the accumula…

> This is not how the things work.

Of course that’s how things work! You really think that having a kid is a guarantee that kid’ll take care of you as you die?

I watched my parents care for their dying parents and that’s just not something I’m interested in. I live 2000 miles away and told them to sort their own plans out when the time comes.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#65

Post by mortician »

gumby wrote: post #63
mlindner wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside of "the way of Japan" is that they'll shortly have no one to pay for all the old people. Keeping old people alive is expensive. In the US young people pay old people's social security income. You see how many people are talking about the aging baby boomers right? Imagine that but much worse.

Increased labor productivity through automation (and allowing people to live longer on their own through assistive devices) should ameliorate this. There's no shortage of young people globally so Japan could always import more if they wanted to. Again, a pyramid-based model can't go on forever.

[dead]

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#66

Post by justboxing »

insickness wrote: post #62
tathougies wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cut off from the sexual marketplace. Sex is not a marketplace, and it's not surprising that people who view it as such aren't having sex. It's like trying to learn to play the piano using the theory of relativity.

Of course sex is a marketplace. There's a hierarchy with most attractive people at the top, least attractive people at the bottom. There's more agreement than disagreement about which people are "more attractive" and "less attractive"--but there is some disagreement. Maybe a woman I find very attractive, you don't find attractive at all (assuming you are attracted to women). Everyone is competing to find the most att…

> Everyone is competing to find the most attractive/compatible mate. They bypass the less attractive/compatible and go after (or accept dates with) more attractive people

Correct. Or, as Louis C.K. eloquently put it. "You either F-ck up, or F-ck sideways. Nobody F-cks down."

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_BPt18sbyQ

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#68

Post by dazilcher »

justboxing wrote: post #66
insickness wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course sex is a marketplace. There's a hierarchy with most attractive people at the top, least attractive people at the bottom. There's more agreement than disagreement about which people are "more attractive" and "less attractive"--but there is some disagreement. Maybe a woman I find very attractive, you don't find attractive at all (assuming you are attracted to women). Everyone is competing to find the most att…

> Everyone is competing to find the most attractive/compatible mate. They bypass the less attractive/compatible and go after (or accept dates with) more attractive people Correct. Or, as Louis C.K. eloquently put it. "You either F-ck up, or F-ck sideways. Nobody F-cks down." Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_BPt18sbyQ

Isn't the person you f-ck up, effectively f-cking down? Or, more eloquently: without f-ck down, there is only f-ck sideways :)

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#69

Post by mercer »

dazilcher wrote: post #68
justboxing wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone is competing to find the most attractive/compatible mate. They bypass the less attractive/compatible and go after (or accept dates with) more attractive people Correct. Or, as Louis C.K. eloquently put it. "You either F-ck up, or F-ck sideways. Nobody F-cks down." Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_BPt18sbyQ

Isn't the person you f-ck up, effectively f-cking down? Or, more eloquently: without f-ck down, there is only f-ck sideways :)

I suppose it's possible for both sides to feel like or think that they're 'fucking up', or 'down', for that matter.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#70

Post by fulafel »

insickness wrote: post #42

> But the 68% increase from 2002 to 2015 in the incel share of the male, never-married, 22-35-year-old population is mostly due to a decline in marriage, not never-married men having less sex. The authors of this article admit that involuntary celibacy is rising among young men. They admit that 20% of the men are having 60% of the sex while incels claim it's 80%--not that much of a difference. Marriage is declining--…

"The Institute for Family Studies (IFS) is dedicated to strengthening marriage and family life"

This is just a lobbying group trying to ride the news cycle.

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