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As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

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Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#61

Post by spyspy »

k8sftl wrote: post #53
merb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

k8s is not complex. You basically can spin up a cluster in no time on CoreOS via pxe/ipxe. You do not even need all these fancy stuff around k8s. You only need to ssh into your machine to start bootkube (on a single machine) or later to update the kubelet (can be done with ansible). Everything else can be managed via kubectl.

CoreOS, PXE, bootkube, kubelet, kubectl. And you say it's not complex? I don't think you and I will ever agree on the meaning of that word.

This thread is extremely refreshing. The number of times I've heard "Kubernetes is sooo simple!!!" here and elsewhere is super frustrating.

"You just take your app and put it in a container, then put that container in a pod, which is in a replica set with some other apps in their own containers, which is on a node in a cluster in a datacenter somewhere! Oh and the replica set is amongst a deployment. And if you want to talk to the outside world you'll need a sidecar with ngnix which is an app in a container in your pod. Or your deployment. But it's different than your app. Time to get kubectl and minikube installed..." People act like all these concepts are taught in beginner CS classes.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#62

Post by adamm255 »

atombender wrote: post #3

Kubernetes is one of those rare cases where the industry is rallying around a technologically sound platform that emerged from the trenches, and not something that was designed to create jobs for consultants. It's great. Right now, there's a bunch of fairly traditional players such as Red Hat, but none of them are in a position to mess it up. What I'm waiting for, though, is for a big player to do a modern, clean "Ku…

Pivotal and VMware are working on this. From what I’ve seen (yet to play around too deep with this yet) looks promising. You’ve got it spot on though, just needs to be simple. https://pivotal.io/containers/deploying

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#63

Post by georgebarnett »

k8sftl wrote: post #53
merb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

k8s is not complex. You basically can spin up a cluster in no time on CoreOS via pxe/ipxe. You do not even need all these fancy stuff around k8s. You only need to ssh into your machine to start bootkube (on a single machine) or later to update the kubelet (can be done with ansible). Everything else can be managed via kubectl.

CoreOS, PXE, bootkube, kubelet, kubectl. And you say it's not complex? I don't think you and I will ever agree on the meaning of that word.

To somebody who understands the function of each of those tools, your statement reads as “grep, sed, awk, perl. And you say Linux isn’t complex?”.

I think you’re overestimating complexity based on lack of familiarity.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#64

Post by dsnuh »

spyspy wrote: post #61
k8sftl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CoreOS, PXE, bootkube, kubelet, kubectl. And you say it's not complex? I don't think you and I will ever agree on the meaning of that word.

This thread is extremely refreshing. The number of times I've heard "Kubernetes is sooo simple!!!" here and elsewhere is super frustrating. "You just take your app and put it in a container, then put that container in a pod, which is in a replica set with some other apps in their own containers, which is on a node in a cluster in a datacenter somewhere! Oh and the replica set is amongst a deployment. And if you want…

Yeah, and trying to explain all these concepts to devs, qa folks, data scientists, etc. when you tell them they have to start working in a Kubernetes environment, then actually working with them to make changes to their apps to make that happen is a long journey - unless you happen to have a first class team on hand that really knows the ins and outs of how the entire ecosystem works.

Kubernetes has some great attributes, but being simple isn't one. I feel sometimes that Google really pulled one on us, and this is just training people to treat the entire system as a black box, locking them in to services only top tier cloud companies have the expertise to provide and maintain reliably.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#65

Post by outworlder »

rubiquity wrote: post #12
atombender wrote: post #3

Kubernetes is one of those rare cases where the industry is rallying around a technologically sound platform that emerged from the trenches, and not something that was designed to create jobs for consultants. It's great. Right now, there's a bunch of fairly traditional players such as Red Hat, but none of them are in a position to mess it up. What I'm waiting for, though, is for a big player to do a modern, clean "Ku…

> and not something that wasn't designed to create jobs for consultants. I wouldn't be so sure about that. Consulting companies are drawn to operational complexity, of which Kubernetes has a lot of, like bears are to honey. https://kubernetes.io/partners/ https://www.google.com/search?q=kubernetes+consulting&ie=utf...

It has a lot of complexity, but only because it does so much.

Thing is, can you point to alternatives which are simpler? I cannot think of any, unless you only have a handful of containers to manage.

Even things like AWS's own ECS become difficult to manage as you grow.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#66

Post by hodgesrm »

atombender wrote: post #3

Kubernetes is one of those rare cases where the industry is rallying around a technologically sound platform that emerged from the trenches, and not something that was designed to create jobs for consultants. It's great. Right now, there's a bunch of fairly traditional players such as Red Hat, but none of them are in a position to mess it up. What I'm waiting for, though, is for a big player to do a modern, clean "Ku…

Are you proposing that cloud vendors should do a better job of integrating Kubernetes with underlying infrastructure or are you saying there should be a Kubernetes-only cloud platform? If the former that's clearly desirable; you should be able for instance to set up networking between services without having to worry (much) about how it is implemented.

If the latter, I am not so sure (or else I don't understand your point.) A lot of things don't/won't run well on Kubernetes--database management systems are a good example as well as any legacy application, which includes a lot of Windows OS, so you still have to address those.

More subtly Kubernetes is not going to rewrite the whole world or implement distributed firewalling, network attached storage, VLANs, etc. So you are always going to have a non-K8s layer under there that is more or less foreign to the Kubernetes model. The best you can do is make the layering relatively efficient.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#67

Post by outworlder »

k8sftl wrote: post #53
merb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

k8s is not complex. You basically can spin up a cluster in no time on CoreOS via pxe/ipxe. You do not even need all these fancy stuff around k8s. You only need to ssh into your machine to start bootkube (on a single machine) or later to update the kubelet (can be done with ansible). Everything else can be managed via kubectl.

CoreOS, PXE, bootkube, kubelet, kubectl. And you say it's not complex? I don't think you and I will ever agree on the meaning of that word.

If you are deploying anything that's not a static website, you are going to have to learn a lot more concepts than these.

You do not have to use CoreOS, you do not need PXE boot. That's one of the possible ways.

What you do need is a handful of containers, and an overlay network. Which, if you do not want to manage, you can sign up for something like Google Cloud and let them manage it for you.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#68

Post by hodgesrm »

adamm255 wrote: post #62
atombender wrote: post #3

Kubernetes is one of those rare cases where the industry is rallying around a technologically sound platform that emerged from the trenches, and not something that was designed to create jobs for consultants. It's great. Right now, there's a bunch of fairly traditional players such as Red Hat, but none of them are in a position to mess it up. What I'm waiting for, though, is for a big player to do a modern, clean "Ku…

Pivotal and VMware are working on this. From what I’ve seen (yet to play around too deep with this yet) looks promising. You’ve got it spot on though, just needs to be simple. https://pivotal.io/containers/deploying

Check out also VMware's container service extension (CSE) on Github. CSE makes it easy to pop up clusters on vCloud Director, which is the VMware cloud stack used by a lot of service providers.

Disclaimer: I work on CSE and use it for K8s dev/test. It's really handy.

https://github.com/vmware/container-service-extension

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#69

Post by outworlder »

ex3ndr wrote: post #60

Does anyone knows a very good CD for k8s? I found that only bitbucket deployments is a good one in terms of simplicity of managing deployments (just like Heroku). Most vendors forces me to use their crappy CI solution for doing CD. Why they want me to migrate to your (very limited) build system? I can pay you for a fancy dashboard, but please, allow me to use whatever i need to build my software. There are many optio…

Closest I've got was Spinnaker. Support for K8s was very hit and miss (some concepts did not translate properly), but it is getting much better now.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#70

Post by ryanSrich »

This is true for startups new and old.

At Datica (where I work), we started in 2014 with a bespoke container orchestration layer. This powered our HITRUST certified Platform. Think Heroku for regulated industries (like Healthcare). After years of hardship trying to keep up with the market we finally decided to go all in on K8s.

Kubernetes gives us the flexibility and community to focus on the compliance and security layer, while not having to build a Platform in house. Until now, no other open source solution had given us this type of flexibility. We're still working toward a GA release, but the speed at which we've been able to move has been incredible.

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