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An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

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Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#61
post #29
post #26

MSG is fine, but I stubbornly cling to the notion that high quality ingredients should yield umami taste without adding MSG. To me it's similar to using ripe red bell peppers that are sweet, without needing to "fake" it with cane sugar. It's easy to turn dishes into caricatures by taking basic tastes to extremes. I'm no miso soup expert, but shouldn't it naturally have MSG from the seaweed, fermented miso paste, tuna…

From a culinary perspective, the flip side of that --- referenced in the article --- is that sometimes you want the umami taste sensation without clouding the flavor of the product you're "seasoning". You can bump umami with soy sauce, parm, or tomato paste, but not without adding soy, parm, or tomato flavor. MSG lets you turn that knob while mostly keeping the pure flavor of the rest of the dish intact.

I identify with both of these issues, and have mixed feelings about MSG.

I'm a sort of accidental vegetarian, in that I never really decided to become one; the rest of my family is vegetarian and I stopped eating meat because it was inconvenient, and then gradually I lost interest in it.

I realized at some point MSG is really useful for adding umami flavor to things without adding other flavors, like seaweed or tomato or mushroom. It is wonderful for certain things, and makes some vegetarian dishes basically indistinguishable from those with meat. I think it's a little odd that people will go out of their way to add unusual strong-flavored ingredients for the umami, when you could just add MSG.

At the same time, MSG on its own to me has a really cheap umami quality. It reminds me of really cheap frozen dinners and bad food from elementary school. For awhile I couldn't get over that, and then eventually realized that when it's used in complement with the right things in the right amounts, it works great--you just need to figure out the right settings.

So sometimes those natural sources of umami just seem contorted and more trouble than they're worth. Other times, they seem to supply umami in a way that doesn't seem cheap or one-dimensional.

I suspect that there's some other component of many "umami" flavors we haven't discovered yet, or other tastes that technically aren't umami but would be identified as such currently. It's difficult for me to believe that MSG is really capturing most of what I like about savory dishes; I feel like something else is missing. I'm waiting for other amino acid salt receptors to be identified; I wouldn't be surprised if they're somehow linked in their activity to glutamate receptors or something of that sort.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#62
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>P.S. I have no reaction to MSG I just don't understand why you would think someone is being irrational. Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional.

> Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional. It has not been proven, and will not be proven, that every single person in the world has no reaction to MSG. All I'm advocating is a little bit of doubt. The human body is complex and not every person is the same and not every biological process is completely understood. We can make statements as a whole, like that most people that thin…

> It has not been proven, and will not be proven, that every single person in the world has no reaction to MSG.

And you have an example of a food anywhere that meets that standard? Literally nothing meets this ideal of "safety", so I don't understand why you're OK with peanuts or shrimp when those are clearly shown to be death sentences for some people.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#63

The article rather understates the use of glutamate in the body. > it is an essential building block of protein found in muscle tissue, the brain, and other organs. It's not only found in every organ, it's present in 99.6% of all human proteins, out of 20328 only 72 do not use glutamate, and of those 29 are keratin proteins.

Plus a neurotransmitter and a fuel as I remember. Modern domesticated plants have far larger amounts than other plants, however.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#64

The article rather understates the use of glutamate in the body. > it is an essential building block of protein found in muscle tissue, the brain, and other organs. It's not only found in every organ, it's present in 99.6% of all human proteins, out of 20328 only 72 do not use glutamate, and of those 29 are keratin proteins.

Interestingly, though (just to digress -- your point is quite valid) it's not an essential amino acid for humans. Obviously it's required to make proteins, but if we don't get enough in our diet our bodies will synthesize it.

It's just interesting that the molecule we evolved to recognize as a "protein!" marker in our food turns out not to be one of the protein submolecules we actually need to surive.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#65
post #29
post #26

MSG is fine, but I stubbornly cling to the notion that high quality ingredients should yield umami taste without adding MSG. To me it's similar to using ripe red bell peppers that are sweet, without needing to "fake" it with cane sugar. It's easy to turn dishes into caricatures by taking basic tastes to extremes. I'm no miso soup expert, but shouldn't it naturally have MSG from the seaweed, fermented miso paste, tuna…

From a culinary perspective, the flip side of that --- referenced in the article --- is that sometimes you want the umami taste sensation without clouding the flavor of the product you're "seasoning". You can bump umami with soy sauce, parm, or tomato paste, but not without adding soy, parm, or tomato flavor. MSG lets you turn that knob while mostly keeping the pure flavor of the rest of the dish intact.

True enough. But at the same time having complicated controls can lead to more experimentation. Literally this very subject (wanting to experiment with alternative glutamate sources) led me to a bunch of stuff you can do with yeast extracts. Marmite/vegemite make great additions to sauces, acting a lot like boullion does.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#66
post #21

If you can tolerate chicken stock, you can tolerate MSG. It’s as simple as that.

I just checked the ingredients on my organic Costco chicken stock. The ingredients do not contain MSG. I found a website that asked Costco about their "natural flavors" and got a response that it does not contain soy, or dairy, and no MSG is added. Is it really that simple? Please explain.

This is for the same reason you don't find "chloride ions" on the label of your soup can.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#67
post #40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might just as well raise concerns about adverse effects from dill, or alliums, or fava beans. In fact, all three of those are more likely to be associated with ill effects, because they're more allergenic. The reason MSG gets such harsh pushback is that the idea of "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" or "MSG sensitivity" has been rebutted pretty comprehensively both from an empirical perspective --- decades of studies…

I'm not trying to raise concerns. And actually, I agree with everything that you said. There is obviously a lot of misinformation and most of people's reactions and stories are factually incorrect and part of a fad. We can say that for sure because we've studied it. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take that knowledge and then proceed to tell an individual, who you haven't studied, that they are wrong abo…

I agree with your sentimate. It's also important to remember that we continually learn new things about how previously considered inert components actually have effect when ingestested in combination with active ingredients. I love glutamate. When isolating them from other components and changing chemical structure, then dumping that in high volumes into other food (where the Chinese Food Syndrome part comes from), it does not seem unreasonable to me that it may cause irritation to some peoples digestive system. So I guess it's important to express that a whole is not only a sum of its parts, and both biology and chemistry are fluid evolving disciplines.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#68
post #64

The article rather understates the use of glutamate in the body. > it is an essential building block of protein found in muscle tissue, the brain, and other organs. It's not only found in every organ, it's present in 99.6% of all human proteins, out of 20328 only 72 do not use glutamate, and of those 29 are keratin proteins.

Interestingly, though (just to digress -- your point is quite valid) it's not an essential amino acid for humans. Obviously it's required to make proteins, but if we don't get enough in our diet our bodies will synthesize it. It's just interesting that the molecule we evolved to recognize as a "protein!" marker in our food turns out not to be one of the protein submolecules we actually need to surive.

I suppose that makes sense if it's one of the easier ones to produce, so many animals can produce it. So it would be a better indicator of general protein than any of the rarer ones would be.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#69
post #5

I've talked to many otherwise perfectly rational folks who get worked up about avoiding MSG when it comes to Asian food — but still go out and buy liquid aminos or eat foods that are caked in it.

I've done a double blind experiment with myself, and msg reliably triggers migraines.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#70
post #60
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say things like this about gluten sensitivity, too, often with very detailed self-reporting. But in a controlled setting, outside of celiac, there's not a lot of evidence for NCGS, and it's very likely that a significant fraction of people who report NCGS are not in fact gluten-sensitive. As with MSG, people also have weird ideas about their gluten intake, and as with MSG there's widespread and easily illustra…

Just to expand on one of the parent's points, Celiac is pretty rare, and affects under 1% of the population. However, Fructose Malabsorption is much less rare, and affects closer to 5% in the US. In spite of the name, Fructose Malabsorption has little to do with dietary fructose, and instead has to do with a class of molecules called fructooligosaccharides (FOS). Overconsumption of FOS causes bloating, nausea, "brain…

> Perhaps added MSG is often found along side other ingredients/contaminants that cause headaches and other reported "MSG symptoms"?

MSG is a clear common denominator. Many people report that if they avoid anything with MSG (under any of its names), they avoid the associated problems. That doesn't mean it's MSG.

Why do studies focus on the MSG? Because they are sparked by the motivation to clear MSG's name (which could actually be right). They don't care about finding the root cause of these symptoms.

The proper scientific approach is to ignore the MSG hypothesis of the self-reported sufferers and get to the root cause, not simply to test that hypothesis and be done.

> "Middlebrow dismissals" of their condition don't really help them either.

Exactly; same in this MSG situation.

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