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Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

jlcollinsnh.com

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Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#61
post #8

As a younger millennial I find myself far more interested in a home from a Maslow’s hierarchy perspective than an investment at this point.

Yes! Tbh I wasn’t really all that interested in buying. I finally gave in after spending a summer working with the homeless, and reading a Priceonomics article about David Raether. I got really afraid. https://priceonomics.com/what-its-like-to-fail/

This article didn't scare me just shined the light that people are truly not willing to sacrifice.

They had a $500k nest egg and living in a 4000 sqf home. The decision could have been to sell the home, downgrade to a home half the size, cut all 'future children investments' and lived a frugal life.

The best future investment that could have been made here is living within the reality of the numbers.

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#62
I own my own home and this idea being pimped to millennials that they should lease everything from car rides, music, movies, bicyles, and shelter is a fast curtain to a bad "third act." (read that as old age)

John Goodman said it best while playing a loan shark in the the film "The Gambler..."

Frank: You get up two and a half million dollars, any a-hole in the world knows what to do: you get a house with a 25-year roof, an indestructible [Japanese]-economy shit box, you put the rest into the system at three to five percent to pay your taxes and that’s your base, get me? That’s your fortress of Fucking solitude. That puts you, for the rest of your life, at a level of fuck you. Somebody wants you to do something, fuck you. Boss pisses you off, fuck you! — Own your house. Have a couple bucks in the bank. Don’t drink. That’s all I have to say to anybody on any social level... Did your grandfather take risks?

Jim Bennett: Yes.

Frank: I guarantee he did it from a position of fk you. A wise man’s life is based around fuck you. The United States of America is based on fuck you. You have a navy? Greatest army in the history of mankind? Fuck you! Blow me. We’ll fuck it up ourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#63
When I was house-hunting, I found it really frustrating how difficult it is to truly price out the total cost of owning a house.

Many people think that renting is throwing your money away, and buying is acquiring equity. This is true as a first-order approximation, but far from the whole story. Home ownership also has ton of non-recoverable costs:

    - interest on your mortgage
    - mortgage insurance (if you have >80% LTV)
    - closing costs on your loan (2-5% when you buy)
    - property taxes
    - homeowners insurance
    - yard care / landscaping
    - HOA fees
    - home maintenance (estimated: 1%/year)
    - realtor fees (6% when you sell!)
    - excise tax (~1% when you sell, in my locale)
All of these costs come before you have contributed a single dollar of equity to pay down your loan. If you rent, your rent check covers all of the above expenses.

I'm still really happy to be a homeowner. I love my house and I love being able to do what I want to it. I just wish it was easier to price out the total cost of ownership prior to buying, so that rent vs. buy comparisons could be more enlightened. I certainly felt like I didn't have enough information to make a totally informed decision when I was choosing to rent vs. buy.

Part of what complicates this analysis is: a lot of the financial benefit arises from the house's appreciation, not your accumulated equity. But betting on home appreciation is a bit of a gamble. Home values are subject to a lot of economic and political factors that you can't control. If the mortgage interest deduction went away, or mortgage interest rates rose significantly, it could devalue houses a lot.

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#65
The article is basically correct. Let's explore the options.

BUYING REAL ESTATE

------------------

Take the average price of a home in the USA, according to a google's top result, approximately 200,000.

Take the average APR at the moment, 4.5%.

That results in a $800 payment per month for 30 years if you put 20% downpayment of 40,000. (source https://www.dollartimes.com/loans/mortgage-rate.php?length=3...)

Depending on the area, you'll most likely be able to rent a similar home for the same or lower amount.

BUYING STOCKS

-------------

Take the same 40,000 downpayment and invest them in a low cost broad market index fund such as Vanguard, SPDR, etc.

Assuming an average long term return of around 9% for the stocks, after 30 years this will result in around $600,000.

(source https://www.investor.gov/additional-resources/free-financial...)

WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING

-------------------------

Let's look at what happens after only 5 more years. Your investment has now grown to over %933,000! If you wait 5 more years (40 years total), the sum is now $1,400,000+ !

Why? Because investments in stocks are compounded! I believe one of the reasons why people think a house is an OK investment is because they don't realize the biggest flaw of one house - it does not really compound the way liquid stocks or ETFs do. In the short run it's hard to see the difference but given a long horizon the differences become enormous.

There's reasons to own a home such a sentimental value, ability to modify it just you like it, etc. But people who believe it has been or is a great investment in the long term are deluding themselves. Look at it as something that's nice to have, or luxury if you will.

PARTING THOUGHTS

-------------------------

You can always come with an example where real estate was a great investment. You can make that argument both ways. If you bought real estate in 2009, you made great returns but if you do the above calculation for the average broad market ETF chances are the returns are even better!

In the long term, history is on the side of dynamic stocks/companies and not real estate. I don't have a crystal ball and can't promise you that choosing one or the other will be better next month/year/decade etc(aka past results do not guarantee future returns). After all, this is all facts of the past :).

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#66
post #16

I really fail to see how most of those points are relevant when you consider that a home is an investment you can, you know, live in. The alternative would be to rent indefinitely, which apparently we're ok with even though its not just a 0% return on investment, its an infinitely negative percent return on investment. Even if your house breaks even over 10 years, you still got to live in it for ten years for what is…

> I really fail to see how most of those points are relevant when you consider that a home is an investment you can, you know, live in. The alternative would be to rent indefinitely, which apparently we're ok with even though its not just a 0% return on investment, its an infinitely negative percent return on investment. This would only make sense if you want to live in a place indefinitely. When the economy here (Al…

Towns that depend on one or a few employers have been a losing bet for home ownership. This has been learned multiple times already. It seems good if you get out before it goes bust, but that's like catching a falling knife (especially if the company is not forthright about its impending doom).

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#67
post #16

I really fail to see how most of those points are relevant when you consider that a home is an investment you can, you know, live in. The alternative would be to rent indefinitely, which apparently we're ok with even though its not just a 0% return on investment, its an infinitely negative percent return on investment. Even if your house breaks even over 10 years, you still got to live in it for ten years for what is…

> I really fail to see how most of those points are relevant when you consider that a home is an investment you can, you know, live in. The alternative would be to rent indefinitely, which apparently we're ok with even though its not just a 0% return on investment, its an infinitely negative percent return on investment. This would only make sense if you want to live in a place indefinitely. When the economy here (Al…

> potentially leading to their bankruptcy

Whoa, you have to go bankrupt to stop paying a mortgage in Canada? In the US, these are (in my experience) secured, non-recourse loans. That means that the bank's final option is to take the house, but if they do that, you owe them nothing else.

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#68
post #12

This is awful analysis. Almost every one of the bullet points is just wrong, or at least terribly spun. I mean, one of them argues that homes are "heavily taxed" when of course they are the source of the biggest single deduction category in the whole budget, another claims with a straight face that the ability to leverage the investment via a (again, government subsidized!) loan is a bad thing! Now, obviously not all…

This is excellent analysis. Every one of the bullet points is correct, and you've picked one to debate (and misinterpreted the argument): relative to virtually every other investment you can make, homes are heavily taxed. Arguing that you can (possibly) deduct some of those taxes misses the point. I don't have to pay my state and local governments annual taxes on the stocks and bonds that I own.

On average, homes in the US appreciate at about the rate of inflation, and the choice to rent vs. buy is favorable in some markets, unfavorable in many others. It's nowhere near as clear-cut as the comments in this thread would lead you to believe.

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#69
post #68
post #12

This is awful analysis. Almost every one of the bullet points is just wrong, or at least terribly spun. I mean, one of them argues that homes are "heavily taxed" when of course they are the source of the biggest single deduction category in the whole budget, another claims with a straight face that the ability to leverage the investment via a (again, government subsidized!) loan is a bad thing! Now, obviously not all…

This is excellent analysis. Every one of the bullet points is correct, and you've picked one to debate (and misinterpreted the argument): relative to virtually every other investment you can make, homes are heavily taxed. Arguing that you can (possibly) deduct some of those taxes misses the point. I don't have to pay my state and local governments annual taxes on the stocks and bonds that I own. On average, homes in…

I recently sold and bought a house, and as far as I know I paid no taxes on it, and I am still deducting mortgage payments. I could pay off my mortgage tomorrow (it's Sunday here, so I'd have to wait for my bank to open) but my accountant tells me that's a horrible idea.

Re: Why a house is a terrible investment (2013)

#70
post #69
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is excellent analysis. Every one of the bullet points is correct, and you've picked one to debate (and misinterpreted the argument): relative to virtually every other investment you can make, homes are heavily taxed. Arguing that you can (possibly) deduct some of those taxes misses the point. I don't have to pay my state and local governments annual taxes on the stocks and bonds that I own. On average, homes in…

I recently sold and bought a house, and as far as I know I paid no taxes on it, and I am still deducting mortgage payments. I could pay off my mortgage tomorrow (it's Sunday here, so I'd have to wait for my bank to open) but my accountant tells me that's a horrible idea.

How long did you hold it? Where was the home located?
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