Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#61

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #29

patrickaljord wrote: post #19

I hate to use the argument but it's really sad that in 2018 we're still trying to make voluntary sex work illegal when every studies show that it 1) doesn't work and 2) makes everything worse for everyone involved. Also, the fact that the very president is known to have used prostitutes and that Washington politicians are well known to be big customers makes this hypocrisy really infuriating.

Backpage was taken down because they knowingly facilitated ads for unwilling sex work, sometimes involving children. You wouldn't have SESTA / FOSTA if you didn't have the pathologically terrible Backpage.

The founders who were arrested are not being charged for trafficking at all.

I've heard they started auto-filtering words (teen, loli, etc.) but that could be interpreted with different intents. These aren't strict liability crimes, so intent will come in to play and need to be proven.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#62

Post by ihsw2 » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

coenhyde wrote: post #23

ihsw2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex "for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse because clients just a…

Ah no. If you listen to the sex workers who are generally WOMEN they advocate for legalizing and regulating sex work. Because they want a safe environment to work in. By making sex work illegal you are preventing people in the industry from going to the authorities to report all the things you are against. You will never stop prostitution by saying it is illegal, all you are doing is allowing the criminal elements to…

How is prostitution different from rape, where sexual autonomy is removed by economic force rather than physical force?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#63

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

ihsw2 wrote: post #50

Notorious_BLT wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people do all kinds of jobs they wouldn't otherwise do for survival. Sex isn't magically different from backbreaking manual labor.

Prostitution trivializes sex by converting it to an activity fueled by capitalist incentives, forcing women to transfer control to her client rather than keeping it in her individual control. It is definitely different in that consent is removed by economic force rather than physical force.

Why do we take sex so seriously? What's wrong with trivializing it? We don't make a big deal about kissing, or playing golf? Animals often fuck without consent (although most other mammals have mating sessions that last less than 15 seconds).

There is a really interesting dynamic in humans where we have either evolved or socially constructed (or both) this very strong sense of importance (and also shame) around sex. Part of this has to do with ownership and the fact that we possess things and status which we pass on to a known set of descendants.

You can look at a beautiful peace of art that's colorful and evokes incredible emotions .. and that's art. Two people fucking and it's not art, it's porn .. unless it's in an art gallery as an exhibit about the porn industry.

I wish our University wasn't so insanely big. It'd be interesting to find other sentient life and see if all life tends to evolve this specific attitude around sex or if it's unique to our species.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#64

Post by phkahler » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #21

ihsw2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex "for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse because clients just a…

Sorry, I completely disagree. Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. I believe that illegalizing prostitution and other forms of sex acts is a way for a male-dominated world to try to, yet again, limit the power women have in society. A regulated sex marketplace is going to mean women can be much more picky about who they choose to sleep with, and can do so much more safely. They can use…

>> Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men.

It's interesting that you point that out. Some claim that plenty of women use their sexuality to manipulate men, to trade sex for resources (marriage), and other such things. By legalizing prostitution you deprive the rest of the women from being able to do this - guys don't have to buy the cow when they can get the milk on an as-needed basis for a negotiated price and no strings attached.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#65

Post by orthecreedence » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

Notorious_BLT wrote: post #26

ihsw2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex "for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse because clients just a…

Many people do all kinds of jobs they wouldn't otherwise do for survival. Sex isn't magically different from backbreaking manual labor.

I don't know why you're being downvoted. I agree completely. Sex work, when legal and regulated, is just like any other vocation. Putting female sex workers onto some inexplicable pedestal doesn't make sense.

It seems like ihsw2 has a problem with markets in general. I agree that it sucks sometimes people are forced to do things they don't like for economic reasons, but that is not a problem specific to prostitution, and treating prostitution like a special class of work that's somehow different from other jobs is counterproductive to what sex workers are trying to accomplish, I believe.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#66

Post by saagarjha » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #53

jasonkostempski wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lending money?

I suggest the book Debt: The First 5,000 Years. Almost all early religious entities, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, condemned the concept of using money to make money as immoral. The belief was that money was meant to exchange debt, not make people wealthy off that debt. Today Islam still holds this as a majority view in many places (not universally). I'm simplifying it a lot, so I really recommend the book. There is…

I thought that Judaism had some sort of exception that allowed usury in the case of lending to non-Jewish people. This was why many banks back then were run by them.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#67

Post by sudosteph » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #28

ihsw2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex "for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse because clients just a…

> Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. One of the core tenets of feminism is that women have a right to do what they please with their own bodies. A lot of bad things come out of prostitution. That needs to be addressed and policed. Jailing the women practicing it to survive fixes nothing .

Jailing the women who practice is not the only option here.

The nordic model advocates that it's only the buyers who are penalized. Women are then given services that provide a path towards a different means of earning income. The idea is that by making it riskier for the buyer, the average John won't bother with looking for that type of service. The aim is to reduce demand for prostitution in general, which in turn should reduce the demand for trafficking for the purposes of prostitution. Studies do indeed show that countries with this model (Sweden) have less incidence of human trafficking than countries with legalization (Netherlands).

There is a tradeoff though with that model. Mainly that the Johns who remain in the market are more likely to be dangerous.

This is not a clear cut feminist issue though. Many feminists do indeed believe sex work as an industry is harmful to women, even if regulated for worker safety. There are feminists who are ex-sex workers that advocate this position.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#68

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

giancarlostoro wrote: post #17

AFNobody wrote: post #3

> Donald Trump is expected to sign the law this week, but sex workers across the country told the Guardian they were already suffering consequences. Craigslist shut down its personals section, and federal authorities seized Backpage.com, releasing an indictment this week accusing its founders of money laundering and “facilitating prostitution”. The list of charges did not include trafficking. And just a reminder this…

Just like SOPA wasn't necessary when they took down Mega Upload by arresting people accross the world without SOPA or any of the proposed bills that followed....

And they're still trying to extradite Kim Dotcom.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#69

Post by excalibur » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

ihsw2 wrote: post #57

orthecreedence wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So anybody with a job is a slave to economics? Isn't this just capitalism/free markets in general? Seems like you're saying women have more freedom by being told they cannot do something that elevates them economically. Women are still free to have non-paid sex with whomever they want. But if they choose to make money doing it as well, I believe that is another form of empowerment.

Consent is removed by economic force rather than physical force. Performing sexual acts is much more than plain physical labor like lawn maintenance.

This is appalling. Have you ever done any manual labor more difficult than mowing the lawn? Work 12-hour days in a factory for a few years, then tell me you wouldn't rather get paid to have sex.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#70

Post by mseebach » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #29

patrickaljord wrote: post #19

I hate to use the argument but it's really sad that in 2018 we're still trying to make voluntary sex work illegal when every studies show that it 1) doesn't work and 2) makes everything worse for everyone involved. Also, the fact that the very president is known to have used prostitutes and that Washington politicians are well known to be big customers makes this hypocrisy really infuriating.

Backpage was taken down because they knowingly facilitated ads for unwilling sex work, sometimes involving children. You wouldn't have SESTA / FOSTA if you didn't have the pathologically terrible Backpage.

You also wouldn't have the PATRIOT act and the TSA (and a host of other junk) if some terrorists hadn't flown planes into the WTC.

Bad actors doesn't excuse bad law, and good intentions does not make unintended consequences any less real.