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A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

theguardian.com

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Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#61

Post by robotresearcher »

dhimes wrote: post #24
rbranson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that vending machines don’t scale. Consider that much of the “tracking” on a site like Amazon.com are to overcome the inherent problems of finding products in such a massive catalog.

To add to this, what if the vending machine was able to dispense 1000 things? And let's say that you are diabetic? Wouldn't it be nice if the sugar-free treats were easy for you to find? And the organic stuff easier for those seeking them to find? Etc. etc. Somewhere there must be an intelligent balance.

Amazon could be that machine, if we could rely on them to (at the customer's option) properly delete the customer's credit card number and delivery address when the package is delivered.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#62

Post by zdkl »

tzs wrote: post #50
nkrisc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that a vending machine doesn't need to do all those things to fulfill its purpose. Dollar goes in, soda comes out. Yes you can make a vending machine do that, but that's not the point.

What is the purpose of the vending machine, from the consumer point of view? Is its purpose to provide an oasis of snacky goodness to those who happen to encounter it while passing through? If so, then yes, all it needs is dollar in, item out. I'd argue, though, that vending machines that are in places where they are regularly encountered by the same people over and over again, such as vending machine in office build…

>They are to provide those who live or work near them a snack safe space.

>"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't vend that to you. Would you like a Dr. Pepper or Pepsi instead?"

I realise this was humour, but you framed the problem as I see it perfectly. I don't feel safe if I don't know Hal's code, especially if he's talking to all the other Hal's (be they other vending machines or information aggregating corporations). And what are the odds that these things will be open source?

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#63

Post by TeMPOraL »

ABCLAW wrote: post #53
dcow wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also interesting to look at Stallman's tone: he's defeated. "What can be done about privacy Mr Stallman?" " Society needs to care more." It's the same tone JPB had when asked about how the EFF can have an impact on younger generations who take the internet for granted. "They need to care more. And education." They're not wrong, of course. And your comment is very similar: the problem isn't the technology, it's t…

I mean, they're kinda wrong. You can care plenty about these issues but not see an actual way to have impact such that your concerns are addressed. If society isn't caring, then either society doesn't see why there's a concern, or society recognizes that atomically it does not have agency to address the issue, and the people who do have that agency are the ones that don't give a shit.

Saying "society needs to care more" is the last stop before the final destination of "this can't be done". Getting great many people to coordinate on something that's beneficial to them long-term, but carries an (even insignificant) short-term cost is one of the hardest (if not the hardest) things to do, out of all the things humans ever tried.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#64

Post by TeMPOraL »

vibrolax wrote: post #59
tzs wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the purpose of the vending machine, from the consumer point of view? Is its purpose to provide an oasis of snacky goodness to those who happen to encounter it while passing through? If so, then yes, all it needs is dollar in, item out. I'd argue, though, that vending machines that are in places where they are regularly encountered by the same people over and over again, such as vending machine in office build…

The vending machine would be a more equitable host by telling Dave that it was saving the last Tab for Carol, and offer the alternatives. Dave could accept or decline. Maybe Dave wants the Tab because he's fetching it for Carole.

But that would be revealing personal information; some customers would consider it creepy, and possibly even sue.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#65

Post by dcow »

ABCLAW wrote: post #53
dcow wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also interesting to look at Stallman's tone: he's defeated. "What can be done about privacy Mr Stallman?" " Society needs to care more." It's the same tone JPB had when asked about how the EFF can have an impact on younger generations who take the internet for granted. "They need to care more. And education." They're not wrong, of course. And your comment is very similar: the problem isn't the technology, it's t…

I mean, they're kinda wrong. You can care plenty about these issues but not see an actual way to have impact such that your concerns are addressed. If society isn't caring, then either society doesn't see why there's a concern, or society recognizes that atomically it does not have agency to address the issue, and the people who do have that agency are the ones that don't give a shit.

I meant it more as: you need both. (At least I'm not suggesting people shouldn't care--can't speak for the GP, RMS and JPB, but I suspect they also still care[d]--and you always can care.) When you've spent large portions of your life advocating for digital liberty and software freedom only to see it decimated in both the public and private sectors in favor of convenience & control, it probably makes you a bit jaded. And you wonder if you missed something. Where the battle stands today, at least in my opinion, is with convincing people that their life is better with these freedoms, not as much that these issues exist.

My point was simply that we can't skip the stable society part and sit in an ivory tower of activism.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#66

Post by saagarjha »

discussedbefore wrote: post #38
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #7

I wish we could find a way to apply the model of the vending machine to mass commerce. A vending machine doesn't make notes of who buys its products. A vending machine doesn't keep logs of its transactions or of the payment methods used. A vending machine does not make "recommendations" of what the consumer might like based on their past purchases. You give the vending machine a dollar, it gives you a soda. The trans…

How close is Apple Pay? Is there anything in an Apple Pay transaction identifying the customer (that can be correlated across purchases)? I've heard good things but I have no idea about the details. Edit: https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/02/apple-pay-an-in-depth-lo... merchant sees NO account information but has the final four digits of the PAN [CC number] as an account identifier to use as a mechanism for tracking v…

Like another comment mentioned, no matter how secure Apple Pay is, any sort of anonymity is easy defeated by having a video camera pointed at your face.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#67

Post by confounded »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #13
DataWorker wrote: post #4

Obviously this proposal will be rejected because both companies and governments are addicted to the power to control and manipulate that data gives them. We need a strong leader who will go against the grain of these massive entrenched interests and be willing to stand up to the media onslaught such a stance will bring. The mainstream media will attack anyone who threatens their advertising based business model. When…

1. We don't need a strong leader. Fascism and authoritarianism have zero interest in the privacy of citizens. Never had, never will. 2. Power corrupts, so the overall answer is: never.

Leadership != fascism.

Change from below requires organization and coordination, and those things require leadership.

Were MLK or Ghandi fascist, because they were effective leaders?

Frankly, I find more of a fascistic tinge in the stock HN response to surveillance:

- Governments will never do anything; democracy is not fit for purpose

- A ‘natural elite’ of hacker Übermensch can avoid dystopia for themselves with hacking skills and expensive crypto currencies. The masses cannot be saved as they are inherently stupid and submissive. Things will always get worse, especially for them; abandon them.

Why such fatalism? The GDPR hasn’t even hit the books yet, and it’s having a transformative effect on how large US tech companies process data for everyone. We’re just beginning to see the tide turn on public opinion on Facebook.

I’ve hope for popular interest in privacy and anti-authoritarianism yet.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#68

Post by Too »

madez wrote: post #3

The article raises good points. One important aspect is missing though; the reliance on web services, SaaS, and the like. Free software is not enough. We need free software that runs locally and offline.

Apples privacy policy actually says they will always do "on device processing whenever possible". Where the line between possible and feasible is drawn isn't really specified but If they really live up to this it is reason enough for me to only buy apple products as the other 2 options seem to have a completely different view of this.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#69

Post by nwah1 »

robotresearcher wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #30

This seems like such a losing battle. Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. The cat is out of the bag. Information technology makes this data accumulation inevitable. Likely even for those who walk around with a face covering all day, pay only cash, and don't use smartphones. By doing those things you actually…

> Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. In the article Stallman explicitly proposes deleting such video recordings after a timeout, and forbidding facial reco without prior cause.

His first argument was that accumulation itself needs to be prevented. If security requires accumulation proceed, then the answer is that his vision of preventing accumulation is not really possible.

How many times have we heard of large institutions suffering data breaches or failing to delete data that they are supposed to delete? Once it is accumulated, all bets are off.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#70

Post by freeone3000 »

dhimes wrote: post #24
rbranson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that vending machines don’t scale. Consider that much of the “tracking” on a site like Amazon.com are to overcome the inherent problems of finding products in such a massive catalog.

To add to this, what if the vending machine was able to dispense 1000 things? And let's say that you are diabetic? Wouldn't it be nice if the sugar-free treats were easy for you to find? And the organic stuff easier for those seeking them to find? Etc. etc. Somewhere there must be an intelligent balance.

That's an argument for good search and discoverability - a sugar-free aisle.
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