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NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#61

Post by annerajb »

bicubic wrote: post #59
cmsonger wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Background: My wife drives a Tesla Model S with AP. Inattentive drivers more than overconfident drivers. You look down and stare at your phone for 10 seconds in a normal car and you are punished pretty quickly and learn not to do it. You look down and start at your phone for 10 seconds in a Tesla with AP and "nothing bad happens" ... almost all of the time. And that's the problem with this version of AP. Yes, Tesla s…

The problem with Tesla’s ‘autopilot’ is that it’s anything but. Asking drivers to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel while not steering guarantees that their attention will wander, because their brain isn’t getting enough stimulus to keep focused on the task. I don’t know why it’s not clear to most people by now. The current Tesla ‘autopilot’ is simply more dangerous than manual driving because it har…

I am curious how do aircraft pilots got around this? Autopilot on aircraft work same as a Tesla drive a straight line where I aimed you have way less interaction than on the car. Yet pilots are able to take over autopilot and their responsibility during it's use is mostly looking out the window and occasionally switching frequency

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#62

Post by buvanshak »

JshWright wrote: post #28
IBM wrote: post #24

I learned everything I needed to know about Tesla's culture and Elon Musk specifically after their response a few years ago to the NYT's review criticizing the Model S's cold weather performance. All their subsequent responses to criticism haven't changed my impression at all. 'Lying with statistics' is a go-to Tesla PR move.

Even more deviously, it's "lying with true statistics".

In ancient time, it was by "the word of god" from prophets by which you controlled the masses.

Now it is statistics.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#63

Post by MichaelGG »

mrtksn wrote: post #36
lafar6502 wrote: post #30

Both Uber and Tesla try to discredit the victim before any official investigation ends, and in both cases it’s quite clear they will try to cover their asses first. And they have all the data. How can we be sure they don’t selectively hide something or don’t tamper with the records before giving them to investigators?

Maybe we have a valid use case for a blockchain? edit: can someone explain what’s so wrong with this comment please?

Blockchain provides zero benefit in this case. People on HN are tired of people ignorantly (sorry) saying blockchain. You should state, for starters, why simple digital signatures are not enough.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#64

Post by maccam94 »

mrtksn wrote: post #36
lafar6502 wrote: post #30

Both Uber and Tesla try to discredit the victim before any official investigation ends, and in both cases it’s quite clear they will try to cover their asses first. And they have all the data. How can we be sure they don’t selectively hide something or don’t tamper with the records before giving them to investigators?

Maybe we have a valid use case for a blockchain? edit: can someone explain what’s so wrong with this comment please?

Blockchains do nothing to make the source of information trustworthy, they can only prove the information was created before a particular point in time. You could doctor a photo/video and put it on the blockchain just as easily as a real photo. You would only be able to tell it's fake if the original version was added first (if there's an original to begin with). There's a fundamental analog hole[1] when connecting a digital system to the real world.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#65

Post by jacquesm »

Natsu wrote: post #52
xvf22 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you're right, the police happily pointed out that the woman was homeless and seemed to blame the victim. Why would they do that? It's reasonable to assume it's to keep Uber happy.

> No you're right, the police happily pointed out that the woman was homeless and seemed to blame the victim. Why would they do that? Because A.R.S says that pedestrians have a duty to yield outside of crosswalks and they normally make the police's accident report available shortly after any accident. I know because I was over there not very long ago trying to get one for someone else. It's just off of Mill Ave., not…

> Because A.R.S says that pedestrians have a duty to yield outside of crosswalks and they normally make the police's accident report available shortly after any accident.

Regardless, it is normal to wait until an investigation is complete before you start making statements. Making premature statements actually makes the results of any investigation look suspect. Pretty dumb move.

Oh, and even if the woman is at fault that does not mean it is open season on pedestrians that happen to end up on the road.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#66

Post by etimberg »

annerajb wrote: post #61
bicubic wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Tesla’s ‘autopilot’ is that it’s anything but. Asking drivers to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel while not steering guarantees that their attention will wander, because their brain isn’t getting enough stimulus to keep focused on the task. I don’t know why it’s not clear to most people by now. The current Tesla ‘autopilot’ is simply more dangerous than manual driving because it har…

I am curious how do aircraft pilots got around this? Autopilot on aircraft work same as a Tesla drive a straight line where I aimed you have way less interaction than on the car. Yet pilots are able to take over autopilot and their responsibility during it's use is mostly looking out the window and occasionally switching frequency

I think the big differences are that:

* pilots have thousands of hours of training/practice

* there are 2 of them

* there is a lot less traffic in the sky / not making a turn every km

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#67

Post by atomical »

mannykannot wrote: post #49
TillE wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber has said essentially nothing about their crash, it's the cops who rushed out and got nearly everything wrong. Uber clearly had a serious technical failure, but there's been no PR spin from them.

I think it is possible that the Tempe police chief and mayor anticipated the incident could be a problem for them, especially given the secret agreement that later came out, and chose to try to spin the story on their own account. It is not hard to imagine that, in that frame of mind, they might be receptive to someone from Uber saying "clearly this was unavoidable", but I have no way of knowing whether any such conv…

> Then there is the question of whether the Uber-supplied video accurately represents the lighting conditions at the time...

Why would that matter? The issue here is that the LIDAR system failed to detect the pedestrian.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#68

Post by random4369 »

annerajb wrote: post #61
bicubic wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Tesla’s ‘autopilot’ is that it’s anything but. Asking drivers to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel while not steering guarantees that their attention will wander, because their brain isn’t getting enough stimulus to keep focused on the task. I don’t know why it’s not clear to most people by now. The current Tesla ‘autopilot’ is simply more dangerous than manual driving because it har…

I am curious how do aircraft pilots got around this? Autopilot on aircraft work same as a Tesla drive a straight line where I aimed you have way less interaction than on the car. Yet pilots are able to take over autopilot and their responsibility during it's use is mostly looking out the window and occasionally switching frequency

There are two critical differences.

1: The handover latency (time from AP requesting handover to time pilot takes over) is measured in seconds to tens of seconds. AP is designed to give up a long time before any possible issues occur. Contrast this with cars on roads where the reaction times need to be in the sub-second range to avert crashes. If AP took a plane into terrain during poor visibility conditions and the pilots only got a second or two of terrain warning prior to a crash, such a crash would never be classified as pilot error on those grounds. Contrast this with self-driving cars where the autonomy frequently doesn't give up at all and the driver's awareness of the situation is the only thing to save them.

2: There are two operators on controls at all times. Recognising the limitations of human attention spans is one of but not the only reason for this being a requirement in civilian airlines.

Boeing has a whole design philosophy about making the operations of AP completely transparent to the pilots and failsafe. That means that all key controls (thrust, trim, stick, etc.) in the cockpit are physically manipulated by the AP so the pilots can see exactly what's going on. and more importantly that the controls represent the exact state of AP when the pilot takes over, so there are no unexpected sudden changes in input. The current generation of self-driving cars is a joke compared to the safety engineering that goes into AP systems.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#69

Post by wpietri »

PhaseBlue wrote: post #31
wpietri wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, I wondered about this bit: "Tesla said Huang had not followed guidelines intended to ensure drivers are paying attention while the vehicle is in Autopilot mode." Even if the sensors were correct, I have deep questions about the human ability to follow instructions requiring them to be robot-like. I would love to see some studies measuring the extent to which people can really follow Tesla's guidelines to the…

The guidelines are pretty simple: When you engage autopilot it reminds you: Keep your hands on the wheel: Be prepared to take over at any time.

Sure. And I'm skeptical that's really enough to keep most humans alert enough to actually be effective at taking over at any time.

Most users will say it's fine, of course. And, as here, Tesla will certainly use it to quickly blame the driver in an accident. But I'd like to see objective measures of attention compared over the long term.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#70

Post by cmsonger »

bicubic wrote: post #59
cmsonger wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Background: My wife drives a Tesla Model S with AP. Inattentive drivers more than overconfident drivers. You look down and stare at your phone for 10 seconds in a normal car and you are punished pretty quickly and learn not to do it. You look down and start at your phone for 10 seconds in a Tesla with AP and "nothing bad happens" ... almost all of the time. And that's the problem with this version of AP. Yes, Tesla s…

The problem with Tesla’s ‘autopilot’ is that it’s anything but. Asking drivers to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel while not steering guarantees that their attention will wander, because their brain isn’t getting enough stimulus to keep focused on the task. I don’t know why it’s not clear to most people by now. The current Tesla ‘autopilot’ is simply more dangerous than manual driving because it har…

> Asking drivers to keep their eyes on the road and hands on the wheel while not steering guarantees that their attention will wander, because their brain isn’t getting enough stimulus to keep focused on the task.

Completely agree! When I'm driving her Tesla (no RSI issues here) I much prefer to use the adaptive cruise (which is really nice) and do my own steering for exactly the reason you cite. I have to pay attention anyway and steering keeps me from getting bored. Plus I do things like, you know, pass and keep myself from getting into bad situations that are many seconds ahead.

I only use AP to demonstrate it as a party trick to folks who have not seen it before. I half agree with the "use crowd sourcing to get AP training sets" but I completely disagree with how the thing is currently marketed -- even if (as you say) the legalese tries to cover Tesla.

Don't get me wrong: Her Model S is a spectacular car. I love it. But AP is somewhere between a party trick and a death trap unless, like my wife, you have serious problems holding the wheel for hours and are therefore happy to sit there and "supervise" what is a bad expressway autopilot.

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