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Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

arstechnica.com

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Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#61
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > But zooming out from the specifics of Herzberg's crash, the more fundamental point is this: conventional car crashes killed 37,461 in the United States in 2016, which works out to 1.18 deaths per 100 million miles driven. Uber announced that it had driven 2 million miles by December 2017 and is probably up to around 3 million miles today. If you do the math, that means that Uber's cars have killed…

You have a sample size of 1. Acknowledging that doesn't suddenly make the sample evidence of anything, good or bad :P. Almost all the miles driven are going to be in near-ideal circumstances (daylight, no rain, good road surface, driver familiar with normal road traffic conditions and drives the route regularly). I have nearly no insight into the uber death, but I gather it happened at night. It could easily be that…

Of course it's evidence of something!

Suppose, as a massive oversimplification, Uber's self-driving cars crash with some constant probability P for every mile driven (i.e. a Bernoulli process).

We now have learned at least one thing with absolute confidence: P > 0.

The first mile driven before the accident, of course, also showed P But beyond absolute certainty, we also have a better idea of the actual value of P. (Intuitively, the longer we go without a crash, the lower we suspect P to be, and for every crash, we increase our estimate of P).

If there was only one crash in 3 million miles driven, this is evidence for values of P near 1/(3 million), and evidence against values of P far from it.

Is it strong evidence? Nope! But it's evidence!

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#62
"Uber announced that it had driven 2 million miles by December 2017 and is probably up to around 3 million miles today. If you do the math, that means that Uber's cars have killed people at roughly 25 times the rate of a typical human-driven car in the United States."

Wow there goes that "safer than human drivers" argument.

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#63
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if they are at fault they should be punished, but you do realize that the expectation for self driving vehicles is not to eliminate all car related deaths, right? edit: wow this triggered some people. somehow 'if they are at fault they should be punished' got interpreted as 'they are not at fault and should not be punished'

Almost all current assitance systems in luxury cars, which are not design for automated driving, could have avoided this situation with activation of the emergency brake. But this car didn't even brake at all? It will be interesting when Volvo pulls back from that relationship, because even the uptodate emergency brake assistent should have catched up. Except Uber as deactivated those in favor for their own technolog…

I think a lot of us are of the opinion that it wasn´t as dark as the camera makes it look. But let´s say it was... a human driver under those conditions would have full beam headlights on, and I´ve never personally experienced any issues spotting cyclists and dark clad pedestrians with those on.

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#64

"Uber announced that it had driven 2 million miles by December 2017 and is probably up to around 3 million miles today. If you do the math, that means that Uber's cars have killed people at roughly 25 times the rate of a typical human-driven car in the United States." Wow there goes that "safer than human drivers" argument.

/s ?

It's a pretty unfair comparison, with 1 death on one side and over 30k on the other...

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#65
post #23

I have two problems with this article. 1) They make it appear that Uber is a car manufacturer. 2) Even though Uber has not been determined to be at fault, the author seems to want to make it that way anyway.

Every engineer on this project at Uber knows very well that their car completely failed in one of its most basic expected functions. It's incredibly obvious, and a number of independent experts have said as much. I'd be fairly surprised if there's any real appetite at Uber to continue with this now. It was never anywhere near their core competency.

> core competency

3 years ago Uber hired ~50 specialists from CMU to work on autonomous vehicles. I'd call that a core competency.

https://www.theverge.com/transportation/2015/5/19/8622831/ub...

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#66

"Uber announced that it had driven 2 million miles by December 2017 and is probably up to around 3 million miles today. If you do the math, that means that Uber's cars have killed people at roughly 25 times the rate of a typical human-driven car in the United States." Wow there goes that "safer than human drivers" argument.

/s ? It's a pretty unfair comparison, with 1 death on one side and over 30k on the other...

No because the rate is per million miles driven. It allows us to compare two different things. The sample size is one but it isn't looking great so far.

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#67
post #9

"Testing" of driverless cars seem to be the wrong way around. Software should try to learn from human drivers: watch them instead of being watched by them. The way it would work would be: the human is driving and the software is, at the same time, watching the driver and figuring out an action to take. Every time the driver's and the software's behavior differ, is logged and analyzed to figure out why there was a dif…

Agree. Uber should have fitted their taxis with data devices.

So that their AI would learn how to block bus stops and bike lanes?

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#68
post #52

Why don’t we require software engineers who work on self driving car software to go through licensing and certification. And then, if their code results in a death, they are liable and can have their license completely revoked, and they would be unable to work on self driving cars again.

Engineers aren’t in charge. Unlike lawyers, surgeons, even dental hygienists, they aren’t making the calls.

It may have been an executive that just said to turn off LIDAR for testing. Then the engineer probably mentioned it wasn't ready for live testing, was overruled, did it knowing it wasn't ready, because if he refused he may have been fired.

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#69
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driverless car programs should really not be having more than 1 fatality per 100 million miles. Uber is currently at 1 per 3 million miles.

A sample size of 1 is completely meaningless.

It's not, because we have considerable detail about that one sample. This wasn't simple bad luck, it was performance on par with a completely distracted driver.

Re: Video suggests huge problems with Uber’s driverless car program

#70
post #5

> We don't need redundant brakes & steering or a fancy new car; we need better software," wrote engineer Anthony Levandowski to Alphabet CEO Larry Page in January 2016. Looks like Uber has attracted Levandowski due to his cultural fit.

Hmm, but wouldn’t his priorities be correct in the context of this crash? There hasn’t been any suggestion (so far) that the crash occurred because some hardware component stopped working; rather, it seems like the software failed to identify the pedestrian in time. So better software seems precisely what was needed. Though I can imagine that better sensors might also have helped…
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