Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 170 posts

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#61

Post by sdhgaiojfsa »

mbid wrote: post #42
sdhgaiojfsa wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but y=x+1 and u=v+1 are the same, even if they use different terms. Likewise, y=x+1 !== y=x-1, even though they use the same terms. It's really unclear to me that much harm will be done if everyone speaks the same language, and it's clear to me that there will be great benefits. That's an easy position for me to take as a primary speaker of the world's dominant language. It's also no skin off my back if othe…

Not all knowledge is logic or maths.

It's an analogy.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#62

Post by meheleventyone »

bjourne wrote: post #57

Same thing with Swedish. :( I feel kind of guilty myself because as a developer, I write almost exclusively in English. Most software related terms simply don't exist in Swedish and with everyone using English no new words are being invented. It's even worse with the younger generation. They can't even use Swedish idioms so they switch to English. For example, they might know and use "You're on thin ice" but don't kn…

This is also my experience as a foreigner living in Iceland. Tech companies that I’ve worked at work in English and the language even in Icelandic is peppered with English technical terms and idioms. The terms generally exist in Icelandic but are just ignored since their invention tends to follow the English term becoming commonly used. Even socially English idioms pop up relatively frequently. I’ve only got young kids but have witnessed kids outside of that chatting away to one another in English for extended periods then switching back to Icelandic. It’s definitely an accelerating and new trend. My partner is Icelandic and most people of her generation are at least able to speak English if not comfortable with it. A generation older and I’ve met many people who can’t.

There are other interesting trends as well. The relatively good economic situation and contributing tourist boom mean you very often will be served in downtown Reykjavík by someone who doesn’t speak Icelandic. Icelanders are simply off doing other jobs. In the scheme of things it’s a small change but very noticeably different from when I moved here.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#63

Post by chicob »

johan_larson wrote: post #3

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, yes, it's a pity to see a cultural artifact like a language fade away. I get that. But on the other hand, having the world Balkanized into thousands of mutually incomprehensible linguistic ghettoes is a bad thing, because it makes it harder to get things done on large scales. Things would just be easier if we spoke a manageable handful of languages.

It's not like people resentfully segregate from each other just because they speak different languages.

Languages evolve, change, innovate and sometimes they go extinct. Latin disappeared with the downfall of the Roman Empire (although it is still used in the Vatican, including ATMs), but paved the way for many romance languages. Even Navajo saved lives during WWII.

Like species, we know they're condemned to eventual extinction. But who likes seeing something disappear forever?

Many translations are impossible to make because different languages allow for different meanings, metaphors and concepts. Their coexistence is actually beneficial and adds something to human culture.

If one would apply that reasoning to programming languages, the programming landscape would suffer terribly.

E só para enriquecer um pouco este comentário, aqui fica uma linha na minha língua materna!

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#64

Post by kuschku »

bjourne wrote: post #57

Same thing with Swedish. :( I feel kind of guilty myself because as a developer, I write almost exclusively in English. Most software related terms simply don't exist in Swedish and with everyone using English no new words are being invented. It's even worse with the younger generation. They can't even use Swedish idioms so they switch to English. For example, they might know and use "You're on thin ice" but don't kn…

And the worst part is that with the removal of the language barrier, people also all start to consume the same media.

And that means US culture starts to affect more and more people.

Already today people that primarily watch english media have significantly different views on driving children to school, or social safety than those who watch primarily media in the local language, even correcting for age, gender, education, etc.

It’s scary to see because it’s means more and more of the broken parts of US culture end up here in Europe as well.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#65

Post by deong »

cal5k wrote: post #13

Just got back from Iceland! (I'm Canadian) Outside of the touristy parts of Reykjavik, everybody will assume you speak Icelandic until you respond in English. Then they'll switch to almost perfect English, with remarkably few exceptions. It was pretty amazing. In small towns like Akureryi, there's a lot of local pressure to keep signs mostly in Icelandic. I was actually surprised by this since there were a lot of Eng…

Akureyri isn't really a "small town" by Icelandic standards though. Once you get into the actual small towns over on the eastern side of the country for example, English proficiency is much, much lower.

But yeah, certainly the more populated areas are extremely English-friendly. My folks in Arkansas probably see more non-English speakers in the average month than I did in Reykjavik.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#66

Post by groovy2shoes »

pacaro wrote: post #41
personlurking wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, trying to learn the language of the country you’re in when everyone speaks fluent English kind of sucks exactly because everyone will just switch to English instead of let you practice. I suppose that’s the rub: to a local, when they notice you speaking (or, rather, trying to speak) a foreign language in a their country, are you struggling or trying to practice?

I’ve often heard this, it’s never been my practical experience. If after the other party switches to English you either persist in their language, or ask politely if you can continue in their language, everyone I’ve ever encountered has been happy to help me stumble on

I'll admit that I've had very few opportunities to travel abroad thus far, but, for what it's worth, my experience has been the same. In fact, most people seem to be a bit gladdened to find that a foreigner (perhaps especially an English-speaking tourist) is making an effort to learn their native tongue. And also, likely, a bit amused by my shortcomings—but that's no big deal: it's how you learn.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#67

Post by irrational »

kuschku wrote: post #64
bjourne wrote: post #57

Same thing with Swedish. :( I feel kind of guilty myself because as a developer, I write almost exclusively in English. Most software related terms simply don't exist in Swedish and with everyone using English no new words are being invented. It's even worse with the younger generation. They can't even use Swedish idioms so they switch to English. For example, they might know and use "You're on thin ice" but don't kn…

And the worst part is that with the removal of the language barrier, people also all start to consume the same media. And that means US culture starts to affect more and more people. Already today people that primarily watch english media have significantly different views on driving children to school, or social safety than those who watch primarily media in the local language, even correcting for age, gender, educa…

What is preventing Europe from creating media that reflect their culture and exporting it to the world? If Europe could create music, movies, etc. that are more popular than the offerings from the US then... problem solved?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#68

Post by hyperrail »

Windows has provided UI language packs for Icelandic since at least the release of Windows 8.0 in 2012, and now offers them for supported versions starting with Windows 7: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/14236/language-pack... (The UI translation/localization is partial; the most read strings are in Icelandic, but the rest are typically in English, and you need to install the English UI language pack to load those strings.)

And if you go to Bing's website https://www.bing.com and set your browser to request webpages in Icelandic (via an "Accept-Language: is" HTTP header), then much of the website changes to Icelandic. However, the search query auto-complete suggestions and the search results will only be in Icelandic if you are in Iceland yourself.

From the article, it seems like the Guardian reporter either didn't know this, or doesn't think Microsoft is important (!):

> Online, however, is the biggest concern. Apart from Google – which, mainly because it has an Icelandic engineer, has added Icelandic speech recognition to its Android mobile operating system – the internet giants have no interest in offering Icelandic options for a population the size of Cardiff’s.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#69

Post by dkarl »

marten-de-vries wrote: post #9
Retric wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the first half of a language dying. If everyone speaks Dutch and it's on signs and menus etc then learning Frisian has limited value.

I don't think so, or the language would have died out already. I'd argue it's more about whether children learn it as their primary language. Also, because of concerns of linguistic extinction, similar to the ones mentioned for Icelandic in the article, you see somewhat of a counter-movement as well. This caused e.g. a special status of the language by law (see e.g. [1]), and also: * it's a mandatory school subject *…

I'd argue it's more about whether children learn it as their primary language.

I'd say even that can't accomplish much by itself, which is why the other things you listed are so important. A lot of Mexican-American kids in my hometown spoke exclusively Spanish at home, and now as adults if you ask them if they can speak Spanish most of them say "not really." They're embarrassed if they have to speak Spanish with someone from Mexico who has an adult vocabulary and a sophisticated grasp of the language. When your education, media, and social life is entirely in English, you end up so much more capable in English that that's all you want to speak. Even with their friends who also spoke Spanish at home, if the context of the conversation was their English-language schoolwork or an American band or an American TV show, it was more natural to talk about it in English; if there was somebody present they didn't know, it was safe to assume they spoke English; et cetera.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#70

Post by drharby »

mbid wrote: post #18
krapp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because people share the same language, it doesn't mean they think the same, or share the same values. Many people around the world speak English, but they don't become culturally American or British because of it.

Yes they do. Look at popular music around the world. It's all slight variations of American popular music. I don't think this is only because of the dominance of English, but the two phenomena are definitely symptoms of the same disease.

This is a massively flawed conclusions for so many reasons
Post reply on HN