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The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

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Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#61

Post by yock »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #36

This is the flip-side of creative destruction. Amazon and ecommerce in general have given us a world where brick and mortar retail often just can't compete. 99% of these layoffs and restructurings, etc. are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The writer of this article seems to think that the executives are just trying to milk the company all the way down, but it's not even clear to me there's a better o…

> Now, it's definitely sad when people lose their jobs, but that's kind of the devil's bargain we've made with capitalism.

It's not so much a "bargain" as it is how we discover which jobs are useful. Capitalism is very efficient at exposing useless labor, and this is a good thing. Having a bunch of humans laboring at jobs no one needs or wants is wasteful.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#62

Post by cowpig »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #46
toomuchtodo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better comparison would be Starbucks considering the margins. Not everyone needs to have Apple margins to compensate their retail employees above minimum wage (considering the $14 million dollars Barnes and Noble executives have siphoned off already).

considering the $14 million dollars Barnes and Noble executives have siphoned off already I don't know, $14mm for the executive team of a company with tens of thousands of employees and 600+ stores doesn't seem crazy to me. Maybe you think that smart, capable, experienced executives grow on trees, but you're wrong. And what smart, capable, experienced executive would ever want to take this job when they probably have…

They'd probably be better off finding an executive who works for 100k/yr but believes in the company.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#63

Post by emodendroket »

ams6110 wrote: post #56
emodendroket wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel that you've really engaged the arguments of the post, particularly the failure to hire any seasonal employees for the holiday season and the "ship from store" change.

He's saying the arguments of the post are irrelevant. Sure they could have hired seasonal workers for the holidays, and maybe had better results, but either way they are doomed. I haven't bought a book at a retail outlet in probably 10 years. There's just nothing about the retail experience at B&N that's even worth the effort to drive there and park. It's not salvageable.

You don't think there is space in the United States' market for even a single major brick-and-mortar retailer of books? I find that pretty hard to believe.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#64

Post by ryanwaggoner »

ivraatiems wrote: post #57
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but it seems a weird argument to make during record low unemployment. Yes, I'm aware of labor force participation rates, and that the pay for many of these jobs is too low, AI is predicted to destroy jobs, etc, but that's not what we're talking about, right? Amazon employs way more people than B&N, the company they put out of business. Maybe those jobs should be better (OK, they definitely should), but that's…

> Maybe, but it seems a weird argument to make during record low unemployment. Yes, I'm aware of labor force participation rates, and that the pay for many of these jobs is too low, AI is predicted to destroy jobs, etc, but that's not what we're talking about, right? Admittedly, I'm driving the conversation towards a general problem from this specific example. But I think that even if I accept the premise that right…

we still need to prepare for the future that's coming

I disagree, honestly. Not because I don't think all the things you're saying will happen will happen, but because of all the things that are also going to happen that we're not talking about, because we don't know what they are. Yes, tons of jobs are going away (although I think it'll be 10-20 years for most of these, not 3-5 years like many seem to think), but what new sectors, opportunities, jobs, etc. will be created? I'm an optimist, so I genuinely think we'll adjust and adapt. I think we'll end up with most people doing jobs that don't exist today.

I could be wrong though.

However, no one knows the future, and the prediction that tech will destroy more jobs than it creates has been made since the start of the industrial revolution. So you basically have to fall back on the claim that "this time it's different". Which has also been made repeatedly during that time period :)

But honestly, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter whether we should prepare or not, because we won't. Not in America at least.

There is no chance in hell that our political system will get its act together in the next two decades to get ahead of this problem and put policies in place for a bad situation that's coming but hasn't arrived yet. Look at all the problems that we know are problems because we're already living through them that we won't even fix now. We just put patches in place (maybe) and keep kicking the can down the road. Seriously, if half the jobs in America get destroyed in the next 20 years, it'll take us 40 years (or violent revolution) to address it.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#65

Post by AlphaWeaver »

biggodoggo wrote: post #26
djsumdog wrote: post #11

So the bigger question, if this trend continues and B&N goes the way of Borders ... what happens to all your Nook purchases? I only have 2 or 3, but I feel like I need to figure out how to rip the DRM off and export all my highlights/notes sooner rather than later.

I've heard from friends that https://calibre-ebook.com is the "go to" solution for this kind of thing

Calibre is fantastic, and open source too! It's primary a library management system with all the features you could ask for, but there are also open source plugins to remove DRM that make it a go-to for creating libre libraries.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#66

Post by barsonme »

yock wrote: post #61
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #36

This is the flip-side of creative destruction. Amazon and ecommerce in general have given us a world where brick and mortar retail often just can't compete. 99% of these layoffs and restructurings, etc. are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The writer of this article seems to think that the executives are just trying to milk the company all the way down, but it's not even clear to me there's a better o…

> Now, it's definitely sad when people lose their jobs, but that's kind of the devil's bargain we've made with capitalism. It's not so much a "bargain" as it is how we discover which jobs are useful. Capitalism is very efficient at exposing useless labor, and this is a good thing. Having a bunch of humans laboring at jobs no one needs or wants is wasteful.

Yeah. Sharp edges are all the more better for cutting, it seems.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#67

Post by sseveran »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #36

This is the flip-side of creative destruction. Amazon and ecommerce in general have given us a world where brick and mortar retail often just can't compete. 99% of these layoffs and restructurings, etc. are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The writer of this article seems to think that the executives are just trying to milk the company all the way down, but it's not even clear to me there's a better o…

I agree with the beginning, especially about the deck chairs as its an expression I often use. Let's be clear its people like me who killed Barnes and Noble not its executives. I have two or three sets of bookshelves downstairs in my office filled with books, many of which were bought at B&N. I spent hours sipping coffee in their cafe's. Then I bought my kindle. And I basically have not been back since. When I do buy a physical book it is typically a rare math or finance book which B&N is not going to carry. And my life is richer for it. I bought two books today for my kindle that were mentioned on a podcast I was listening to. B&N is just a dead company that has not gone out of business yet and I agree that there is little to nothing that can be done to keep it existing in its current form.

The company today is only worth $340M dollars. Maybe it could restructure as some sort of higher end boutique store, but that would probably require a significant downsizing and realignment. Its hard to see a positive way forward but maybe someone else will.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#68

Post by ryanwaggoner »

cowpig wrote: post #62
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

considering the $14 million dollars Barnes and Noble executives have siphoned off already I don't know, $14mm for the executive team of a company with tens of thousands of employees and 600+ stores doesn't seem crazy to me. Maybe you think that smart, capable, experienced executives grow on trees, but you're wrong. And what smart, capable, experienced executive would ever want to take this job when they probably have…

They'd probably be better off finding an executive who works for 100k/yr but believes in the company.

I doubt it. Belief and passion may be necessary, but they're not sufficient. How do you pick this person? Based on the strength of their belief? Because if it's based on their experience and track record, you're back to where you started: this person likely has better alternatives and is smart enough to want to be compensated for the opportunity cost they're incurring.

Also, it's all well and good to say this when it's not your money on the line, but the board is responsible to the shareholders, and I doubt they're interested in taking a chance on some unproven person who has "belief in the company" as their primary qualification.

Re: The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble

#70

Post by burlesona »

Yes this is creative destruction, but Amazon is able to sell at a loss because Wall St. sees the infinite dollar signs at the end of this road when they’ve literally killed off all competition. Selling at a loss is anti-competitive and should get them hammered by anti-trust, but somehow the US government has decided that, in this generation at least, monopolies are fine as long as they don’t raise prices.

As a customer I like Amazon, but as a citizen they deeply worry me.

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