How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? • Hacker News Board

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#61

Post by 20180201 » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #28

As someone who's navigated their way from poor->middle class->upper middle class I can give a bit of perspective that I rarely see mentioned in these articles... One of the biggest barriers to moving up in class is the people in your starter class. Family, friends, neighbors... almost all of them will start to get very aggressive with you if you seriously try to better yourself. I remember being accused of using too…

birth limits you to upper middle class. you can be fabulously wealthy, but if you did not have the upbringing, you can not claim it.

however, if you are wealthy, you can buy an upper class lifestyle, and your children will be upper class, while you will not be.

in other words, their peers that they grew up with will accept them as upper class (meaning they had an upper-class upbringing), while their parents still consider you to be an up-and-comer, because you did not.

once you realize this, it's a much healthier situation because you stop trying to make that final jump. and once you stop trying to make that jump, both your upper middle and upper class friends will be more comfortable around you.

in other words, once you make it to upper middle, it's not worth worrying over. it's better to just focus on the money to make your family's life comfortable without worrying about social details. money defines everything under upper class; birth and upbringing defines the upper class.

by the time your children's children come around, everyone will have forgotten about you, and the new normal will have taken hold.

that last jump can only be given by birth -- which, if you stop and think about it, is exactly how it works, right?

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#62

Post by eropple » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #9

neengineering wrote: post #5

Written about a scumbag who holds the ultimate divisive belief.

I afraid your post is too brief and vague to connect to anyone?

It's become a common fad on the internet to assert that believing in classism is the real act of division. The other possibility that jumps out is that Arwa Mahdawi is either Muslim or of a culturally Muslim community (I've read her work and so I'm aware of her but not her history), and, well, could just be some racisms up in here. Pick your poison.

(Ordinarily I would not amplify that sort of post, but decent folks need to know what they're up against.)

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#63

Post by tytytytytytytyt » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

pb wrote: post #54

saget wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you dress is very important. Knowing enough about current events and having your own, thoughtful opinion about them. Knowing a number of books and using them in conversation. Rules on when to be blunt are different. Never order a burger at a restaurant. I could go on but it's a hard thing to summarize. (source: was middle/lower class, now have many 1% friends)

What's wrong with burgers? Expensive restaurants often have really good burgers.

And Ikea has some really good furniture one could assemble themselves, too...

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#64

Post by oldcynic » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

gorpomon wrote: post #7

I spent a summer in NYC a few years ago. While living in NYC I did get a flavor of higher class living with some roommates of mine. It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't. However, this is one issue that's hard to put solely on the foot of the rich or a broader system. Passing in many avenues, not just by class, is really deciding you want to be the…

> I think rather than teach young children how to hold spoons ... we should just teach improv skills

I think there's an argument for a little of both, by way of giving them tools to fit in at multiple levels (classes, call it what you will). Then it's their choice to fit in or stand out as they feel best in the widest range of situations.

Of course knowing which of 5 sets of cutlery is for what shouldn't actually matter much...

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#65

Post by callesgg » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

staunch wrote: post #3

> In the UK, class consciousness is woven into the national identity. In America, however, people often like to pretend that a class system doesn’t really exist. But, of course, it does. This is the most insidious part. The media in the US has historically been 100% controlled by rich people, and all major media still is. The evil rich people figured out that if you start a gender and race war among the 99%, you can…

It sounds insane/neurotic if you think some rich people sat in a meting deciding that would be a good way to suppress the poor.

It might serve their richness but that does not mean they have hidden agendas in regards to it.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#66

Post by Helmet » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

ikeyany wrote: post #20

We love to talk about how being born a certain gender or a certain race shouldn't hold you back from achieving anything you want in America. But what if you are unlucky enough to be born into a poor family, or in a backwoods, downtrodden region of the country? My experience aligns with the author's. In movies and feel-good stories shared on social media, we romantically idolize the humble rich person, who came from n…

> There is a moral failing in our country where the pursuit of money is seen as the objective optimal thing to do. But it's very reasonable to look at how money changes people, and to turn away from such a lifestyle in disgust.

It's also very easy and PC to venerate the poor out of some misguided sense of pity or moral absolutism.

One could look at poor communities, and, as you said "turn away from such a lifestyle in disgust" and choose enrich themselves.

I'm also not entirely, or even in the least bit, convinced that our society, institutions, social structures, and general well-being would be better off WITHOUT class distinctions. Going deeper, they seem to me to be an essential component of civilization, one of the many necessary "glues" of social order.

edit: This site is slowly turning into Reddit - contrarian opinions need not apply. Instead of down-votes, why not rebut what I said? It's not like the matter is settled, and the last couple times the populous tried to "abolish" social classes, mass terror followed.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#67

Post by hkmurakami » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #28

As someone who's navigated their way from poor->middle class->upper middle class I can give a bit of perspective that I rarely see mentioned in these articles... One of the biggest barriers to moving up in class is the people in your starter class. Family, friends, neighbors... almost all of them will start to get very aggressive with you if you seriously try to better yourself. I remember being accused of using too…

Question -- how have your mannerisms, speech, attire, body language, etc changed as you moved up in ecocnmic class? I'm wondering how the cues for your social class have changed alongside it.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#68

Post by gadders » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #11

gorpomon wrote: post #7

I spent a summer in NYC a few years ago. While living in NYC I did get a flavor of higher class living with some roommates of mine. It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't. However, this is one issue that's hard to put solely on the foot of the rich or a broader system. Passing in many avenues, not just by class, is really deciding you want to be the…

> It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't Any examples spring to mind?

Being English is a minefield. Here's an old list but some of it still definitely applies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#69

Post by ryanwaggoner » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #11

gorpomon wrote: post #7

I spent a summer in NYC a few years ago. While living in NYC I did get a flavor of higher class living with some roommates of mine. It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't. However, this is one issue that's hard to put solely on the foot of the rich or a broader system. Passing in many avenues, not just by class, is really deciding you want to be the…

> It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't Any examples spring to mind?

I highly recommend this book, which is dated but holds up pretty well. I found it funny, sad, but overall just brutal in its characterizations of class in America. It's only available in print too: https://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/...

My overall takeaways from the book were:

1. Class is correlated with income, but not identical.

2. Class is so ingrained in so many areas of our lives that it's almost impossible to change. You might as well just be comfortable with the class level you grew up in, because you'll probably always be there.

3. A big reason for #2: caring about your class in the first place is middle class. The more you care about where you fall in the class hierarchy, the more middle and upper-middle class you are. Lower class folks don't really care (and may even take a certain amount of "pride" in being lower / working class), and upper class people have nothing to prove to anyone.

But the book goes into excruciating detail about the way people dress, speak, decorate their homes, what jobs they have, cars they drive, etc, etc.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#70

Post by dsacco » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #49

dsacco wrote: post #38

The first step to understanding the class system is to differentiate between class and wealth. Class has very little to do with wealth, and it is mostly determined by your upbringing, mannerisms, profession, lifestyle and network. A high net worth is helpful but insufficient for gaining entry to the higher class. It can also work against you, if you’re too visible with your money and spend it frivolously. For example…

The article actually profiles one guy who had to acclimate himself twice over, first to the old-money world of the East Coast, then once more over to the new-money world of Silicon Valley.

Yes, it’s quite fascinating differentiating between the social idiosyncrasies of each.