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People leave managers, not companies

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Re: People leave managers, not companies

#61

Post by titzer »

crdoconnor wrote: post #58
subsubsub wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional. As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. Turning up on time is a good way to show your manager that you can be trusted. Edit: Actually, turning up on time may not make your manager trust you more, but turning up late will definitely make them trust you less.

>Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? The worst metric. That is, unless the "turning up on time" is actually causing a serious and recognizable problem. Then it's the problem that's a problem. >As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. No it doesn't. If you put the onus on the developer and say "not only do you have to deliver high quality code you have to make me trust that you've deliver…

> A good manager will either recognize that you're delivering or not.

And a great manager will evaluate the wider effects of your behavior on the whole team and over a long timescale. If you being late to your job causes others to start doing the same, and if your manager cuts you slack because you are a "high performer" then social dynamics come into play that must be...well...managed! Performance also slips over time. People get spoiled, sometimes depressed, sometimes lazy.

Managers look at whole teams and long-term trends. Stop focusing on yourself and the immediate moment. Success is a marathon, not a sprint, and requires careful, regular progress.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#62

Post by WillReplyfFood »

subsubsub wrote: post #47
crdoconnor wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME this kind of experience comes when you have a manager who has no fundamental understanding of what it is that they are managing and has no particular reason to trust you. A manager who can monitor your output by reading your pull requests simply won't engage in this type of behavior whereas a manager who can't will usually instinctively gravitate to terrible metrics like "does he show dedication by being in at 9a…

Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional. As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. Turning up on time is a good way to show your manager that you can be trusted. Edit: Actually, turning up on time may not make your manager trust you more, but turning up late will definitely make them trust you less.

There are lots of 'Professionals' who turn up on time, but turn theire head off while on the time, so you get nothing from mere body presence but billable hours.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#63

Post by saiya-jin »

xerophyte12932 wrote: post #37
somberi wrote: post #28

I have been managing large teams (Anywhere from 100 to 300 people) and in my experience I would phrase it differently. 1. In a going concern, which has found traction, a manager is often the _reason_ for people to leave the company. 2. In a company that is not finding traction, or the larger view of its direction is obfuscated, managers are the reason people _stay_ back to work. This manager being the end-all of asso…

You have been directly managing over a hundred people? That just sounds like textbook bad heirarchy

flat hierarchies are amazing in certain type of companies, I had one line manager who had additional 80 devs under him (he was purely line manager, projects were handled by PMs).

Much better and healthy org than any other I ever worked for. Especially over-layered corporations, ie banks are pretty horrible place to be. This breeds all kinds of politics, managers play their games to look good to upper management without any good work being done etc.

But if this would be some classic department where line+project management blends into 1 hierarchy, this would be too much. Smaller teams, max +-10 people most efficient.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#64

Post by dagw »

cpfohl wrote: post #53
michaelt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In software engineering, many companies prioritise "getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) and consider any metric that contradicts it to be suspect. A person who believes this would say that if according to policy my best employee should work 9am-5pm, but he prefers to work from 7am-3pm and is my best employee, it is the policy not the employee that needs changing. Person…

This. I've literally never held a job that wasn't okay flex time, and I've worked at 4 radically different types of companies as a software engineer over the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I was surprised to read this sorry if environment still existed for programmers

I think the criteria should be turn up on time when it matters. If there is a staff meeting scheduled at 9.30, don't show up at 9.45. Otherwise I agree that day to day most places shouldn't care

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#65

Post by dagw »

crdoconnor wrote: post #60
michaelt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In software engineering, many companies prioritise "getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) and consider any metric that contradicts it to be suspect. A person who believes this would say that if according to policy my best employee should work 9am-5pm, but he prefers to work from 7am-3pm and is my best employee, it is the policy not the employee that needs changing. Person…

>"getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) Getting "work done" is fairly easy to recognize - you can tell when bugs are getting fixed and features are being delivered and when they are not. Getting work done to a high standard and delivered at an appropriate speed is, I think, only recognizable by another developer who is as good or better than you. >Personally, I always try…

Getting "work done" is fairly easy to recognize

Bob closed 20 tickets this week, and Dave is still working on that one ticket from last week. Who got most work done this week?

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#66

Post by pbhjpbhj »

jpatokal wrote: post #57
xerophyte12932 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have been directly managing over a hundred people? That just sounds like textbook bad heirarchy

They did not claim to directly manage 300 people, and it's somewhat bizarre to assume they did.

I think it's the "large teams" bit that makes the OP appear to be saying the "team" is up to 300 people. Team suggests a group of equally ranked members to me.

You can't really have a team of 300, sounds more like a management speak version of team.

Of course only the poster knows for sure their intended meaning.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#67

Post by cdevs »

dagw wrote: post #65
crdoconnor wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) Getting "work done" is fairly easy to recognize - you can tell when bugs are getting fixed and features are being delivered and when they are not. Getting work done to a high standard and delivered at an appropriate speed is, I think, only recognizable by another developer who is as good or better than you. >Personally, I always try…

Getting "work done" is fairly easy to recognize Bob closed 20 tickets this week, and Dave is still working on that one ticket from last week. Who got most work done this week?

This seems like it would be subjective but it actually tells a story. Most likely tickets aren't being broken down enough, one employee could be snagging easy bug tickets in the morning and another employee could be working on a epic feature.

On the other side of things I have a guy at work who rocks out 20 tickets and a guy at work who tries to go into super plan mode and take his time and make sure every semicolon is perfect 20 times. This is ok, it's what management is for I need to make sure the fast guy is a little more careful sometimes and I need to check on mr planner and make sure he speeds it up sometimes.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#68

Post by ccozan »

cpfohl wrote: post #53
michaelt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In software engineering, many companies prioritise "getting your work done" (which is admittedly a subjective, hard-to-quantify metric) and consider any metric that contradicts it to be suspect. A person who believes this would say that if according to policy my best employee should work 9am-5pm, but he prefers to work from 7am-3pm and is my best employee, it is the policy not the employee that needs changing. Person…

This. I've literally never held a job that wasn't okay flex time, and I've worked at 4 radically different types of companies as a software engineer over the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I was surprised to read this sorry if environment still existed for programmers

If you are in Germany, yes there is. I had horrendous experiences in different companies. 5 Mins late was a real offender.

Until I got hang of a manager and I asked what is this nonsense. He told me, he used to work as a manager in real industry and really really cannot comprehend why programmers "whine" so much about this. All his workers started the work at exact 8am so that the parts quota of the day would be achieved. I got no comment and after two weeks I just resigned...

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#69

Post by spodek »

"People join good projects and leave bad managers" is how I phrase it, quoting a business school professor and author, Michael Feiner.

I wrote about how to use the perspective to help prepare for job searches and interviews, and to enjoy your time at work more: http://joshuaspodek.com/people-join-good-projects-leave-2

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#70

Post by notacoward »

There's often a third possibility; leaving groups. At a small enough startup they're effectively the same, but I've seen distinct groups form in companies as small as 20. While it's true that a manager can affect the quality of the entire group, they're only one factor. High-performing fun group with a ho-hum manager? I'll probably stay. Dysfunctional bunch of ho-hum peers with a really good manager? That was my last job, and it's not my current job for exactly that reason.

Especially at a larger company, managers might be constrained wrt hiring and firing, reviews and raises, pushing back against misguided product-management decisions, etc. Even a good manager might not be able to deal with these issues quickly enough to prevent attrition. I've seen some really good managers, people I'd worked with before and who have been superstars at other companies, burn out trying. That's sort of leaving the company that hobbled the manager, but other managers and other groups within the same company were doing fine so I'd call it leaving the group.

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