The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#61

Post by feiofh398r39rty » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

namenotrequired wrote: post #19

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with claiming that genetics causes the success of certain races is that there is greater genetic variation within races than between them, and that there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success. Plus that kind of thinking can lead to racist discrimination, which isn't good.

> there is greater genetic variation within races than between them This is true, which is why we can only say something useful about averages between populations, but not extrapolate to particular individuals. > there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success This is very false. IQ is largely genetic, and the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively…

IQ also correlates with future-orientation, which is basically self-control and anti-criminal behaviour. Being more or less likely to commit a crime is a huge success predictor.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#62

Post by ecshafer » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

I do not. In fact I love taking a break from programming after a long day and talk to people. I think they work different parts of my brain, so it's relaxing.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#63

Post by infinity0 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

Joeboy wrote: post #56

infinity0 wrote: post #14

I always felt that the fact that the tech industry is so welcome to techies and people with "aspie"-type personalities, indicates that in fact we as an industry have more empathy than other industries (or social groups) that shun these types of people (myself included) for what I believe are very superficial reasons. So, I think the title of the article is extremely biased and draws the wrong conclusions from the wri…

The title is a clever misdirection. In the article, it refers to a (claimed) tendency for society at large to react more empathically to perceived discomfort among women than among men. Edit: Although according to wikipedia "empathy gap" seems to mean something quite different from either what I was expecting or the way it's used in the article.

Given all the recent articles about "techies have less empathy" I stopped reading before I got to the end, assuming it would be another one of those.

But thanks for pointing out that in fact it was talking about something else (and I largely agree).

Yes, wikipedia's "empathy gap" does seem to be talking about something else yet again.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#64

Post by dijit » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #15

dijit wrote: post #2

His childhood mirrors my own, although academic success is inverted. I wonder if there is some trait which transfixed us for life, I am certain that the interviewee (Gideon) and I are not alone. It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession.…

I have seen multiple women express surprise that I am programmer because "but you are women" or "I did not knew women can do that". I live in a bit behind the times place, obviously. Conversely, I have seen parents shocked that someone would put boy on art lesson. Is that part of your answer? Nevertheless, among my friends, parents agains boy doing computing were practically nonexistent. Computer was usually in boy r…

> Computer was usually in boy room and boys were heavily praised for every tiny thing they knew and expected to deal. Their sisters largely aware that it is for boys

Thats notable. I can see the opposite is true among my friends who are younger, the girls got laptops because they need to socialise (and privately). Boys use the family computer placed in a communal area for fear they were going to watch porn I suppose. But I'm older and when I was young the Internet was not entirely common. Computers were not ubiquitous and those who worked with them were considered sub-human. I can understand a parent not wanting their child to be a "loser" and I believe it cuts over gendered lines.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#65

Post by spodek » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:33 PM UTC

> the third factor, Gideon said, was the empathy gap, where we tend to be more receptive to women’s pain than men’s. When women talk about being made to feel uncomfortable at work, or being sexually harassed, we feel empathy and want to punish the wrong-doers. But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men as a homogenous category, seeing all men as inheritors of privilege and all men as possessing the masculine traits that foster toughness and resilience. We have a habit of ignoring those who don’t, and when they do talk about their vulnerability, we are inclined to ignore, or ridicule them for it.

The book The Myth of Male Power https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/042... explores and describes this factor and many of its ramifications, which are huge and tragic.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#66

Post by hateduser2 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:33 PM UTC

ecshafer wrote: post #62

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

I do not. In fact I love taking a break from programming after a long day and talk to people. I think they work different parts of my brain, so it's relaxing.

Strikes me as a comment that didn’t need to be shared.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#67

Post by watwut » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #49

watwut wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did not displayed syptomps. They were able to to correctly guess other peoples emotions or imagine themselves in their situation. They did not had single minded obsession nor routines that must happen. You could negotiate with them easily. They were, otherwise said, normal. Of course I might have missed some very mild case or something. And of course opposite, determining whether someone who kind of have some sy…

I think the correct way to understand autistic people vis-a-vis the industry is not by placing such people up on a pedestal as "special", but that tech is an environment where people with social deficits (whether related to autism or simply a lack of social skills) are more likely to survive career-wise precisely because they skills they lack are not needed and are not a selection criteria that words against their su…

I agree with that. I also think it would not hurt much to educate others how to communicate functionally with someone like that, so that it does not end as ugly as it sometimes is (it can turn to bullying in tech too, especially in those highly competitive cut through environnement).

I would say that autistic are in disadvantage also in tech, just less so. Because those social skills are needed for anything except most junior positions and situations with managent capable to crete few positions with absolutely clear requirements and no need to cooperate closely.

However, I strongly dislike when autistic person is framed as average or typical programmer.Note how often is discussion framed in exactly those terms. Or when social skills are framed as somehow in opposition to ability to learn algorithms, design or "computer". You can indeed be interested in both people and programming and even have other constantly changing side interests. And nine of it implies you are bound to be weaker programmer.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#68

Post by sockgrant » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #45

danieltillett wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really have to stop seeing people as members of a group first and an individual second. It is lazy thinking.

Survival on planet Earth has critically depended on lazy thinking: generalizing from incomplete scraps of information, and acting in real-time.

Totally agree. But in some parts of society this is now a detriment that we’ve outgrown. But it’s really hard to fight our nature.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#69

Post by hateduser2 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

Semkas wrote: post #18

I have aspergers, and empathize with the feeling that society doesn't much care about our struggle (or, for that matter, knows how to deal with anyone who isn't neurotypical). One thing I have come to realize though (and I know this will be controversial on here) is that SV and tech in general is this special place where people with limited social skills can go to work for really high salaries to create things of oft…

The act that you don’t see the value in charisma says nothin about whether or not it should trump productivity. I think it’s highly reasonable that it would and maybe obvious that it should.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#70

Post by tacomonstrous » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #32

swombat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true - the Karpman drama triangle (victim-aggressor-rescuer) is a fundamentally human way of seeing the world (however dysfunctional and unhelpful) and so it is present all around the world, not just in the US. I would agree that based on what I read about it, the US seems to be particularly in the grip of this perspective though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

The question is if other societies also adopt the triangle for classes of people in the way the American society does. Not all countries have "affirmative action" laws, which essentially codify victimhood large scale - and also beg the question in which other bucket everybody else belongs. Add an intuitive and statist interpretation of the drama triangle (instead of acknowledging that the same persons can be in diffe…

>Not all countries have "affirmative action" laws, which essentially codify victimhood large scale - and also beg the question in which other bucket everybody else belongs.

The US doesn't have any 'affirmative action' laws. It has non-discrimination statutes.