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Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

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Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#61
post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

How about: -art (cave paintings, etc) -music it's striking to see 6-12 month old infants bopping up and down to music. They're not taught to do this and I've never heard of animals responding to music...

Here's a cockatoo that genuinely seems to dig Elvis (worth waiting until 2:00): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQuDyuQFKE.

And Whales have music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_vocalization#Song_of_the... -- their singing employs musical rhythm and phrasing, and is culturally transmitted rather than instinctual.

Scientists are generally quick to give such vocalisations -- along with bird song, etc. -- purely functional attributes, thereby dismissing any aesthetic or emotional meaning it might have for the animal. "It's a territorial signifier". "It's for mate selection." Etc. This is a mistake: Mozart used his music to get laid; what musician doesn't? We can't know what these sounds truly mean -- subjectively, not functionally -- to an animal, because we can't talk about it with them. But that doesn't mean that it is empty of meaning.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#62
post #5

This is super cool, if a bit scary. Man Australia has it all though, 8/10 of the deadliest spiders, half the deadliest snakes, crocodiles, rockfish, and now firebirds. Inhabiting Australia is a testament to man's arrogance.

Haha, this has been a well-trod rant of mine for years. Don't forget scorpions, vampire bats, great white sharks, and the world's top 4 deadliest jellyfish!

On the flip side of this incessantly boring argument, once you've actually dealt with a swarm of all of these things successfully, i.e. lived to make lunch out of it, then .. pretty much .. everyone elses' zeitgeist seems pretty fucking boring.

The dangers in life are what make it interesting to think about, right at the end of it all...

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#63
post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

You can never convince an animal to give it's food in promise of a place in heaven or to die for it's country. That's something only humans are capable of. Beat that!

Ants

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea of a bird intentionally carrying fire instead of fleeing it seems a bit odd. Fire-stick farming has probably been practiced for tens of thousands of years, which gives a lot of time for birds to evolve in response. Most bushfires in the top end attract raptors as-is (especially Wedge-Tailed Eagles), because there are strong thermals to ride and lots of prey is forced to move, making it easier to hunt. > It…

Okay, that's fair - it's more likely to be true than UFOs being aliens ;) Personally, I'd be excited for this to be true for a number of reasons: * I'm Australian. Any advance in the understanding of how fires spread is of material benefit to me and people I care about. * I love animals. It'd be amazing if another species used fire, and may open up whole areas of research. * I'm Australian, which means I take a bizar…

I don't disagree that it would be better to have video evidence and that it might be a side effect of breathing too much campfire smoke.

But there really is a lot of understudied country out there. Hopefully curious ornithologists and others will start to head out bush during the Dry. If it's a bush legend -- though I hardly put this on par with yowies and bunyips -- then the picture will probably become firmer either way.

FWIW I'm Australian too. Darwinite turned New Yorker.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are the only mammal with consciousness, which leads to knowledge of the future and the discerning of good and evil. Despite the fact that we still don’t understand the least about how consciousness arises in our brain, we are nonetheless the only animal that shows this. Even in cases like monkeys recognizing themselves una mirror, no animal seem to go past that and be aware of the future like we do.

> We are the only mammal with consciousness Uh huh.

Well when you find the great badger city where badgers have been able to put aside their differences and work towards common goals together then let me know. I'd love to see it.

In the meantime I'll stick with the assumption that there is still some sort of difference.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#66
post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

We are special though. Birds carrying burning sticks to spread fires is significantly different from humans: -Starting fires -Using fire to process food -Using fire to process raw materials into something that can be used for tools, structures etc.

Sure but not all goalposts were created equal.

We talk about the use of tools because it's a very significant conceptual leap. Once you understand that you can manipulate your environment to accomplish your goals the abilities in your list are comparatively incremental.

Our use of tools isn't the only measure of specialness, but I'm not sure there are many cognitive leaps quite so significant... language would be one but seems trickier to pin down because there are degrees of sophistication.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are the only mammal with consciousness Uh huh.

Well when you find the great badger city where badgers have been able to put aside their differences and work towards common goals together then let me know. I'd love to see it. In the meantime I'll stick with the assumption that there is still some sort of difference.

And you'll call that difference 'consciousness'. OK.

Meanwhile, I found a great termite city where termites have put aside their differences and work towards common goals together. Also coral. Their city is a thousand kilometres long.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can never convince an animal to give it's food in promise of a place in heaven or to die for it's country. That's something only humans are capable of. Beat that!

Besides the snark, you are right. No other animal understands the concept of sacrificing something today to get something better in the future.

Squirrels bury acorns they could eat that day so they can have food in the winter instead.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#69
post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

In each of those categories we're far and away the best. I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special.

I think among some people that are frustrated with the human world for whatever - either personal or abstract - reason, there's a feeling of misanthropy that colors their thinking, and so they try to belittle humanity.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well when you find the great badger city where badgers have been able to put aside their differences and work towards common goals together then let me know. I'd love to see it. In the meantime I'll stick with the assumption that there is still some sort of difference.

And you'll call that difference 'consciousness'. OK. Meanwhile, I found a great termite city where termites have put aside their differences and work towards common goals together. Also coral. Their city is a thousand kilometres long.

I'm not saying that difference is called anything in particular but I can expect wildly different results from interacting with a city than I can from a mound of coral or a termite nest.

Don't be so disingenuous with these ideas of abstract equivalence. Yes humans are arrogant sods but there is some sort of reason or reasons (that are likely not to be purely environmental) that have resulted in this outcome where we're having a conversion via electricity across the planet instead spending most our lives trying to roll a breadcrumb around never having a chance to know one another.

Something about this gig is different isn't it? Are you genuinely asserting that if we could take the brain of a (insert whatever animal you're considering) and put it in a human shell you wouldn't be able to tell the difference? That's extremely bold.

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