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Telegram Isn't for Sale

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Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#61

Post by lucbocahut »

maelito wrote: post #30
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Here in France, lots of people don't do the difference between the taxes that go to the government, and the social security deductions. Calling the latter "taxes" is wrong. Most of it pays for your retirement and your health problems.

I think the perception that social security and retirement deductions are taxes stems from the fact these are obligatory. Insofar as we have no choice in the matter these have all the properties of taxes. With the caveat it is difficult to compare one country to another because the value of government services you get is somewhat subjective, I offer the following data point for France: if a company outlays 100k, the employee would take home about 58k before income tax. A single person would pay 10k in income tax on that. All in he would therefore have 48k to spend. This might be useful for those of you wishing to evaluate the cost of hiring in France.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#62

Post by 7713w1 »

pavlov wrote: post #14
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole…

Yeah, Aaron Swartz and countless others were protected by the caring state.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#63

Post by HatchedLake721 »

randomThoughts9 wrote: post #32
simonbarker87 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah they do, charities are just businesses that don’t distribute profits to share holders. Making money or not has nothing to do with charity status - it’s about what you do with the profits.

This is a very recent interpretation. It is legally true, but it goes against the true meaning of the word. When you work for a charity, do you ask for a raise? Do you get a bonus if you collect more money? How much to you get to keep? Not even mentioning that sometimes the money goes through a chain of charities, all making a living out of it, but leaving almost nothing for the final beneficiary.

For you - https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_abou...

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#64

Post by rorykoehler »

TrickyRick wrote: post #52
mrwong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

And you didn't get healthcare, free education for 20+ years, subsidised student loans, retirement money, police, fire department etc. from the state? You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you.

Healthcare isn’t free in Germany. It’s extortionately expensive.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#65

Post by esrauch »

TrickyRick wrote: post #52
mrwong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

And you didn't get healthcare, free education for 20+ years, subsidised student loans, retirement money, police, fire department etc. from the state? You really should stop and think what you get from the state before you criticise what the state takes from you.

One interesting property of the US tax structure is that most of the tangible benefits are mostly funded locally (education for 13 years, police, fire, most roads) which is generally a lower tax rate than the federal taxes (which don't as clearly connect to the services that we all need): especially if you don't consider the >50% of federal money spent on the military to be a good use the federal/state/local divide makes it very visible that the taxes you pay are mostly not going to the services that we need.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#66

Post by CodesInChaos »

_s wrote: post #17
mrwong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (pl…

Keep in mind that what the employer pays is about 120% of your misleadingly labeled gross wage. From my point of view the division into employer and employee contributions to what you call Social Security is quite artificial and thus think that you need to compare the net wage with what the employer actually pays.

For example, say your gross wage is 5k/month, the net wage 2.8k and the employer pays 6k. So you take home about 47% of what the employer pays.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#67

Post by maelito »

lucbocahut wrote: post #61
maelito wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in France, lots of people don't do the difference between the taxes that go to the government, and the social security deductions. Calling the latter "taxes" is wrong. Most of it pays for your retirement and your health problems.

I think the perception that social security and retirement deductions are taxes stems from the fact these are obligatory. Insofar as we have no choice in the matter these have all the properties of taxes. With the caveat it is difficult to compare one country to another because the value of government services you get is somewhat subjective, I offer the following data point for France: if a company outlays 100k, the…

Exactly. The government is releasing open source software to make these estimations : https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/simulateur

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#68

Post by jperry »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #20
yeukhon wrote: post #2

> The locations of his servers are a secret, as are many of the names of his employees, several of whom he’s said are fellow millionaires. How is that possible? Are the servers behind an onion network?

If the locations of his servers are merely a secret, isn't that just security through obscurity? Isn't that a serious weakness? Or is there a more advanced way his servers are kept secret than merely being a secret?

Why would you assume it's "just security though obscurity" and not "security plus obscurity"? Or that "obscurity"" as a security measure is a tragic weakness.

This is a trap a lot of people fall into and I don't know why.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#69

Post by nickpp »

pavlov wrote: post #14
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole…

But wouldn't you have liked to shop around for those free-but-paid-from-your-taxes services? And benefit from competition between providers which drives prices down and quality up?

Government are ultimate monopolies: always getting worse and more expensive.

Maybe you are thinking about a handful of functioning, high quality governments (US, Germany, Nordic States) but I am thinking about the great majority of the governments on the globe (Africa, Asia, E Europe) which provide really crappy, expensive services.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#70

Post by stfwn »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #15
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

It's not equal to "get rid of the government". It's just that their government runs on oil profits instead of taxes.

Which is an excellent way to make sure the incentives of the government and its people are aligned. \s
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