Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 90 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#61

Post by skybrian »

mcguire wrote: post #50
bryanlarsen wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation is a monetary phenomenon. As long as you are paying for UBI through taxes rather than by printing money, there shouldn't be any overall inflation. Certainly there will be price adjustments: the prices of some things will go up while others will go down. But that definitely wont "offset any benefit".

Maybe, maybe not. I can see a situation where necessities increase in price, leaving low income household in the same position they have now.

Necessities would go up in price only if increased demand isn't matched by a corresponding increase in supply. There's little reason to believe that's the case except when the market can't adjust in time, and that's temporary. If Walmart sells more, their suppliers will make more, and the economy does better.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#62

Post by rev_bird »

shams93 wrote: post #49
lumberjack wrote: post #39

What a dystopian future. So then, 99% of the population will be powerless, barely subsisting, as if they were rabbits in a cage in the pet store, while the remaining 1% own the entire world.

Its not even going to turn out THAT nice. The new tax cuts assume that the poor will always be working, but between the loss of net neutrality and the automation of driving jobs we're looking at the loss of 95% of male work within the next 10 years. But the rich have divested themselves from society so state and local government will break down and most likely when you lose your career you will land in a concentratio…

>between the loss of net neutrality and the automation of driving jobs we're looking at the loss of 95% of male work within the next 10 years

I'm pessimistic about the same legislative issues you are, but what on earth does this mean? "Transportation and warehousing" accounts for 3.2 percent of all jobs in the U.S. and is actually projected to hold steady between now and 2026.[1] What does net neutrality have to do with anything? Is this... a real comment? Do you really think they're going to send all the boys to concentration camps because their jobs got taken by self-driving cars?

[1] https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#63

Post by skybrian »

sharemywin wrote: post #26
thriftwy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many (most?) markets are buyer's markets. You try to increase prices, you are out of business which is eaten by competitors.

if everyone's costs go up everyone will be forced to raise prices.

To some extent, but labor generally isn't 100% of the cost, so it's still a win.

If wages go up due to people having more and better choices in life, isn't that a win?

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#64

Post by thriftwy »

Joeboy wrote: post #42

(in the context of first world countries with functional welfare states) I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that we're going to get some sort of new deal where the rich are suddenly happy with increased subsidy of the poor, in return for increased social cohesion or whatever. The rich generally resent paying taxes and avoid it where possible. Why are they suddenly going to be happy to pay more tax, to subsidize people…

My take: most of moneys nowdays go not to "the rich" but to various bubless and financial whirpools.

It is possible that the rich would not oppose trading the depressed economy where the only thing growing is bubbles to healthy economy in which they get to keep relative wealth compared to their peers (albeit with smaller gap versus median person).

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#65

Post by rev_bird »

fpgaminer wrote: post #22

When it comes to UBI, there's an interesting psychological phenomenon. I believe that McDonald's and similar establishments could have automated away the vast majority of their work force years, maybe even decades ago. And yet there are still people working there. In fact, McDonald's is often viewed as many people's first entrance into the work force, and as a safety blanket if anything goes south (well worst case at…

>I believe McDonald's and its kin are a form of social welfare.

If anything, I'd argue the current state of affairs is a form of corporate welfare. McDonald's profits by paying its workers as little as possible; because McDonald's employees typically don't have a ton of negotiating power, that amount is usually very little. Paying someone the minimum wage is a company basically saying "I want to pay you less but it's literally illegal."

When McDonald's refuses to pay their employees a living wage, the rest of us pick up the slack in the form of ACTUAL social welfare programs—food stamps, subsidized housing, tax credits, etc. The reason McDonald's workers can be so poor but McDonald's the company can be so successful is because the taxpayer is funding their payroll. They are not our friends.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#66

Post by thriftwy »

lumberjack wrote: post #39

What a dystopian future. So then, 99% of the population will be powerless, barely subsisting, as if they were rabbits in a cage in the pet store, while the remaining 1% own the entire world.

So, do you have other kinds of future to offer?

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#67

Post by jandrese »

skybrian wrote: post #58
jandrese wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is a fancy way of saying "take from the rich to give to the poor". It has to be combined with a progressive tax system to make sense. This isn't even a bad thing from an economic standpoint. Capitalism has the problem where wealth tends to accumulate upward naturally (rich get richer just because they're rich and have a bit of financial sense) and eventually starves itself of demand. Re-injecting cash in the low…

This supposed problem of higher wages would also be an argument against raising the minimum wage, and yet many people are in favor of that because they think low wages are the problem. If UBI does indeed raise wages at the low end, it's because people have more options in life and made their own choices. Seems like a good thing, no? More generally, inflation is usually a bad thing, except in the labor market where it…

IMHO our current economy has a lot of slack in it. We could easily increase minimum wage without noticeable inflation because people are being squeezed from so many different directions. We've let the minimum wage lag behind overall economic growth for too long.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#68

Post by rev_bird »

b6 wrote: post #56

5:23 ... many argue that it might be time to distribute the spoils more evenly to preserve the social peace. This does not come from principles. It sounds like a stickup.

Workers have been generating increasing productivity for decades—Americans have never created more wealth. Yet wages have stagnated, companies have trillions of dollars squirreled away, and the richest families in the country have more money than many millions of the rest of us. Who's getting robbed?

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#69

Post by ameister14 »

jandrese wrote: post #46
sbjustin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why this is being down voted as this is a matter of opinion - an opinion that many agree with. In fact, in the US there is nothing in the constitution that supports the taxation of the people for these programs. I'm all for UBI actually but this opinion is still valid.

Because capitalism doesn't work without taxation, not in the long term. This probably sounds weird to most people, but it is the truth. In capitalism money naturally accumulates at the top, but the whole system depends on money changing hands regularly. It's the essence of the economy. With no taxation all money ends up at the top with people who have nothing to buy, the system grinds to a halt and you have total eco…

If you study the history of economic development, you'll find a lot of things at complete odds with the statements you make here.

For example, while government expenditure can and usually does help drive income, massive taxation isn't necessary for economic development or to avoid the system grinding to a halt and total economic collapse. I'd point you to the latter half of the 19th century in the US for good examples of this. Lack of taxation wasn't the problem.

Feudal economies functioned in an entirely different manner than modern economies, and even then you can't really describe them as a whole with the term 'endless economic depression.'

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#70

Post by rev_bird »

exabrial wrote: post #14

First line: "What if the state covered the cost of living?" Who is paying for the income? It's not "The state". It's everyone else, by taxation. You're telling people you have a right to seize their earnings for their labor. You're literally taking someone else's money, and giving it to someone else. UBI is nothing but people ignoring the moral problems of seizing assets and saying "The end justifies the means." If a…

>You're telling people you have a right to seize their earnings for their labor.

You don't think this is happening now?

A hypothetical, though not a very abstract one: A wealthy investor uses some of their money to buy a corporation. Thousands of people drive to work every day and sit at a desk for more than half of their conscious hours, making money for that company. The investor stays at home, doing whatever he wants. At the end of the day, the investor is many thousands of dollars richer, while the employees have all make $70 in wages.

Capitalism is explicitly about seizing earnings generated from labor. You're not defining "taxation," you're defining "corporation."

Post reply on HN