More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database • Hacker News Board

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#61

Post by ForHackernews » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 10:14 AM UTC

ellius wrote: post #9

sacheendra wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I partially agree with the parent. Showing these "connections" without any context and detail is just infuriating and leads to click-bait headlines with no actual purpose served. I don't think they are trying to insult anyone's intelligence though. They are just being careful with the data so that their sources are safe. While safety is important, this reminds me of the story of the boy who cried wolf. If they keep d…

The problem is that incorporation documents are frequently only a small part of the story. It does allow you to correlate ownership, but unless you can actually show some kind of money movement into and out of accounts, it is difficult to show evidence of a particular crime.

Most of these offshore tax shelters are not illegal. It's just shady that wealthy individuals and organizations can stash their millions and billions away from public scrutiny and avoid paying taxes on them.

It's particularly egregious in the case of ostensibly not-for-profit educational institutions.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#62

Post by toyg » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 10:22 AM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #61

ellius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that incorporation documents are frequently only a small part of the story. It does allow you to correlate ownership, but unless you can actually show some kind of money movement into and out of accounts, it is difficult to show evidence of a particular crime.

Most of these offshore tax shelters are not illegal. It's just shady that wealthy individuals and organizations can stash their millions and billions away from public scrutiny and avoid paying taxes on them. It's particularly egregious in the case of ostensibly not-for-profit educational institutions.

Yes and no. These arrangements are often grounds for prosecution once they come to light. Just because moving money from A to B and from B to C is legal, it doesn't mean that going from A to C is still legal.

Tax authorities usually struggle to reconstruct the entire chain, so they don't prosecute... until somebody else does the job for them, and then they piggyback.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#63

Post by toyg » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 10:30 AM UTC

jiggunjer wrote: post #39

mirimir wrote: post #6

I don't see Caltech or MIT. Interesting.

I don't see Europe. Where are they hiding their money?

Oxford is represented. In continental Europe, most universities are actually state-run or entirely state-funded, so there is no issue. The industrialist approach to educational institutions is very anglo-saxon.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#64

Post by rorykoehler » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 10:59 AM UTC

patall wrote: post #59

rorykoehler wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This raises another question. Is paying taxes inherently moral? Everywhere I look I see tax money being squandered with little to show for it.

If it is so moral what they are doing, why don't they make the whole thing public by themselves. Its not like Universities need to hide anything (sorry for that paraphrase), they are public figures. The thing is that we as a society have decided that we impose taxes in order to fund common things like protection, infrastructure etc. If now certain members of this society decide they do not want to pay their share any…

I agree it's amoral but I'm not sure it's immoral.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#65

Post by zimpenfish » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 11:08 AM UTC

vixen99 wrote: post #56

tonfa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looked at one randomly, looks like some University fund is a shareholder (with over 200 other funds) of a Warburg Pincus fund (a private equity company). I'm not exactly sure how that's a big deal, nothing there implies they avoid taxes or anything. (Maybe the fund they invest in does shady things, but it doesn't look like they have any kind of weird offshore setup)

Do you mean evade or avoid? Everyone avoids tax. Currently taxes on property transfers in the UK are 5% on property priced at £925,000 and 10% if priced at £925,001. I guess Joe Nonavoider sets the price at the latter figure?

> Everyone avoids tax.

No, not everyone. And not everyone evades or optimises tax either.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#66

Post by ThomPete » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 12:47 PM UTC

ryanlol wrote: post #53

ThomPete wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the legality is set up so that it's only those who have a lot of money who can do this. This is the problem. I am all for not paying more taxes than necessary but it should be the same for everyone not just for the few with money to pay the lawyers and pay the fees.

>Because the legality is set up so that it's only those who have a lot of money who can do this. The middle class can very well benefit from offshoring. It may not be for everyone, but it certainly isn’t only a thing for rich people.

It mostly is as you need to pay for lawyers or understand how to construct things.

It's not for the middle class. Upper middle class sure but not average middle class and it doesn't change the fact that it's not equal for all.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#67

Post by zaarn » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 1:48 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #55

trgv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities are supposed to be morally upright. Even if they can't be prosecuted for this, it's still news that they're cheating. Additionally, I think there's a really important difference between following the law and being a moral person (or a moral university, or a moral corporation). The law might approximate our conception of morality, but it doesn't cover it completely. There is an enormous grey area of activ…

This raises another question. Is paying taxes inherently moral? Everywhere I look I see tax money being squandered with little to show for it.

In America maybe. In Germany and other parts of Europe, tax money is not infrequently well spent.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#68

Post by ringaroundthetx » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #58

ringaroundthetx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think ICIJ's outrage-bait here is a swing and a miss. UBIT 40% tax on charities was not created to hit university endowments. This is a reason to use an offshore entity.

UBIT 40% tax on charities was not created to hit university endowments So you're saying we can all simply pick and choose which laws were created with us in mind?

obviously you can, not sure what the argument here is.

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#69

Post by hippich » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

xbzbanna wrote: post #52

hippich wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can incorporate in Delaware to allow shareholders from any US state avoid double taxation" - could you please expand on it? Are you talking about corporate tax + dividends tax, or about something else when saying "double taxation"?

I'm not the person you are asking, but I think it means a US shareholder in a US company being taxed both by the state the company is incorporated in, and the state the shareholder resides in. There are a lot of state taxes that Delaware doesn't charge at all, or can be avoided. It's almost like Delaware is a discount seller of corporate residency. Charge a low price and make it up on volume. Smart strategy by the st…

ah.. that sounds like tripple-taxing then. 1) Federal Corporate Income Tax, 2) Incorporation state income tax, 3) State of shareholder residency taxing income (and then shareholder spending money to buy things and pay sales tax.. - 4?)

Re: More Than 100 Universities and Colleges Included in Offshore Leaks Database

#70

Post by seanmccann » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

hippich wrote: post #69

xbzbanna wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the person you are asking, but I think it means a US shareholder in a US company being taxed both by the state the company is incorporated in, and the state the shareholder resides in. There are a lot of state taxes that Delaware doesn't charge at all, or can be avoided. It's almost like Delaware is a discount seller of corporate residency. Charge a low price and make it up on volume. Smart strategy by the st…

ah.. that sounds like tripple-taxing then. 1) Federal Corporate Income Tax, 2) Incorporation state income tax, 3) State of shareholder residency taxing income (and then shareholder spending money to buy things and pay sales tax.. - 4?)

Funds with international investors often incorporate in a place like the Caymans. If the fund was incorporated in the US, a UK investor "deal with" US+UK tax, even if they don't visit or do business in the US.