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LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

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Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's assuming they are "naked" and not surrounded by rotating disks of gas and dust.

AFAIK, only supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies have disks of material that is falling inward (and emitting significant amounts of light in the process). Even then, they only actively feed in that way for a short period of time -- I think something like 10k years. All of the LIGO observations have been of more basic stellar mass black holes merging together.

[deleted]

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#62
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The apple sauce line is amusing, and I'm sure you know all the following, but even in Newtonian mechanics, potential and kinetic energies are frame dependent; for example the latter is rotationally but not Galilean invariant. In modern gravitational physics you can treat components of the Einstein or stress-energy tensors as like these energies, e.g. for a family of observers, the apple-breaking kinetic energy is lik…

Yeah, I went straight to the static solutions for simplicity of discussion. From the outside, though, is it even in principle possible to tell whether a BH is a stellar-collapse Bh or if it's an eternal Schwarschild vacuum BH? Now we're outside of my realm of expertise. Do I recall properly from my GR class that once stellar collapse begins the outer shell reaches the singularity in a finite time? In that case, I thi…

> From the outside, though, is it even in principle possible to tell whether a BH is a stellar-collapse Bh or if it's an eternal Schwarschild vacuum BH?

There's a hint in "vacuum". There's real stress-energy and it's not where you would put it if building an exact BH solution by hand (I'll return to that in the last paragraph).

How do you tell if a body under a sheet has died peacefully in bed or was violently axe-murdered without lifting the sheet? Look for blood spatter.

If you see the daughter products of a failed core collapse supernova around a black hole, I think it would be strange to think, "hm, that black hole was probably there before the hot dense phase of the universe". The idea of a cosmic supervillain mischievously arranging nebulae around eternal black holes is amusing.

Isolated black holes are trickier, especially as masses go up. How does one distinguish between primordial black holes from early overdensities in the whatever was around at GUT scales or higher vs ones passes through the throats in in a cosmology like the Caroll-Chen model? Unless we catch them evaporating or until we spot them forming, I don't know. Spotting primordial formations is not hopeless, they can't all form with exact spherical symmetry or with the to-be-balded lumps and us on unfavourable alignments, can they? There's bound to be some larger (near-)extremal eating a smaller BH somewhere in our past lightcone. So even if they're very early we should see impressions of the extremal-with-lump gravitational radiation in the relic fields.

> Do I recall properly from my GR class that once stellar collapse begins the outer shell reaches the singularity in a finite time?

Yes, details in MTW section 32. Finite and fast by human wristwatch proper time.

> I think it does come down to philosophy (if you're staying within GR) or some theory that resolves the singularity to say whether the BH is "made of matter" or not

I think BH specialists would love it (and hate it) if someone found something in the matter sector that manifests truly enormous degeneracy pressure. Who knows what the heck is in the inner layers of neutron stars. Cutaway diagrams that show anything other than a ? near the core are wild speculations. One I saw that I enjoyed had six ?????? starting around 10^15 g cm^-3 just for emphasis. Unfortunately this wild hope gets ridiculously wild when considering the most massive known galaxy centre BHs, and eventually your explosion of question marks practically demand some quantum gravity (or asymptotic safety or something).

And anyway there are IR problems in quantum fields on general spacetimes. Even in extremely flat space, G = easily blows up, and who knows what we'll see as we develop devices to point to the source of weak gravity. How small a mass can avoid being in an eigenstate of position for a brief test? [arXiv:1602.07539 is just the start of that story!]

And furthermore actually solving the EFEs is a pain and numerical methods are still barely an aspirin, and anyway readily leads one into even more ways to mislead yourself if you don't cling to a T-first approach instead of a g-first approach ('t Hooft put out a pretty crazy seeming argument based on a brute force diagonalization recently). Sure one could argue that "matter determines curvature" and not the reverse is at least partly a philosophical point, but practically, even if you start with a ridiculously improbable stress-energy distribution you won't be chasing down regions of spacetime in which the eigenvalues of T_ij have the wrong sign. It is perversely common that when one writes down a metric first and then add matter, you end up with a proliferation of negative energy density or find lots of tension around extended objects, or the like.

Tl;dr: I look forward to a successor to GR, but am pretty sure that whatever it is will be even harder to teach.

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#63
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The apple sauce line is amusing, and I'm sure you know all the following, but even in Newtonian mechanics, potential and kinetic energies are frame dependent; for example the latter is rotationally but not Galilean invariant. In modern gravitational physics you can treat components of the Einstein or stress-energy tensors as like these energies, e.g. for a family of observers, the apple-breaking kinetic energy is lik…

Yeah, I went straight to the static solutions for simplicity of discussion. From the outside, though, is it even in principle possible to tell whether a BH is a stellar-collapse Bh or if it's an eternal Schwarschild vacuum BH? Now we're outside of my realm of expertise. Do I recall properly from my GR class that once stellar collapse begins the outer shell reaches the singularity in a finite time? In that case, I thi…

Oh damn again, I should have looked at your links before typing, and figured out your connection to the papers, and saved on a rant. :-)

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIK, only supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies have disks of material that is falling inward Stellar binaries are extremely common, and there is a reasonably large supply of binarys where one star has become a compact object. Their companion stars often drop lots of matter onto them, resulting in a reasonable supply of black holes. Diskoseismologists and others working on Swift have catalogued hundr…

Ah, interesting. That makes a lot of sense. Would it be correct to say that if both objects in a binary pair are SMBHs, they would very likely not have an accretion disk, as the companion would be unable to send over any material?

> if both objects in a binary pair are SMBHs, they would very likely not have an accretion disk, as the companion would be unable to send over any material

BH's don't let what's in the horizon out unless outside is verrrrrrrrrrrry cold (the universe will have to keep expanding for a long tine before it's cold enough for even isolated stellar-mass BHs to lose net mass to evaporation) or the BH is very small.

On the other hand, SMBHs will typically be found in galactic centres, where there is a lot of dust and gas.

So each of the mutually orbiting SMBHs may well have a substantial accretion disk. They may interact, or they might not (the disks might not be in the same plane, for instance).

Given the number of intensely active galactic nuclei we see in the sky, I don't think it's terribly unlikely for a central black hole to have an enormous accretion disk.

However, the Milky Way doesn't have an active galactic nucleus the central parsec is relatively quiet. The dense object in the central parsec is also pretty low-mass compared to that in many galaxies. https://www-xray.ast.cam.ac.uk/xray_introduction/AGN_intro.h...

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#65
post #49

A 1 kg block of plutonium 12,000km away has ~5 orders of magnitude stronger gravitational field than a solar mass at 1 billion light years. Presumably a sudden mass-energy conversion of said kilogram would generate a sharp gravitational wave. Assuming someone went back through LIGOs algorithms to fine tune them for such a detection, doesn't it seem plausible that it would be able to do so? And presumably even locate…

I’ll toss out a guess that the signal is there but it’s so short that there isn’t enough to correlate across locations. So you might not be able to detect a detonation with it, but given a window of seconds from seismograph data you might be able to pinpoint location and corroborate yield.

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#66
post #49

A 1 kg block of plutonium 12,000km away has ~5 orders of magnitude stronger gravitational field than a solar mass at 1 billion light years. Presumably a sudden mass-energy conversion of said kilogram would generate a sharp gravitational wave. Assuming someone went back through LIGOs algorithms to fine tune them for such a detection, doesn't it seem plausible that it would be able to do so? And presumably even locate…

Only a small percentage of the plutonium's mass gets converted to energy during fission.

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#67
post #49

A 1 kg block of plutonium 12,000km away has ~5 orders of magnitude stronger gravitational field than a solar mass at 1 billion light years. Presumably a sudden mass-energy conversion of said kilogram would generate a sharp gravitational wave. Assuming someone went back through LIGOs algorithms to fine tune them for such a detection, doesn't it seem plausible that it would be able to do so? And presumably even locate…

Only a small percentage of the plutonium's mass gets converted to energy during fission.

Indeed, this site says it's about 46g per megaton: http://www.jick.net/hr/skept/EMC2/node4.html

Still, 1kg has a field strength that's 5 orders of magnitude greater than a solar mass a billion light years away...10mg would be in the neighborhood.

If i didn't screw up the math, that's ridiculous.

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The apple sauce line is amusing, and I'm sure you know all the following, but even in Newtonian mechanics, potential and kinetic energies are frame dependent; for example the latter is rotationally but not Galilean invariant. In modern gravitational physics you can treat components of the Einstein or stress-energy tensors as like these energies, e.g. for a family of observers, the apple-breaking kinetic energy is lik…

Yeah, I went straight to the static solutions for simplicity of discussion. From the outside, though, is it even in principle possible to tell whether a BH is a stellar-collapse Bh or if it's an eternal Schwarschild vacuum BH? Now we're outside of my realm of expertise. Do I recall properly from my GR class that once stellar collapse begins the outer shell reaches the singularity in a finite time? In that case, I thi…

> [several MCM papers with interesting bits and pieces that look worth more than a skim]

Wow you guys roll an awful lot of dice.

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, interesting. That makes a lot of sense. Would it be correct to say that if both objects in a binary pair are SMBHs, they would very likely not have an accretion disk, as the companion would be unable to send over any material?

> if both objects in a binary pair are SMBHs, they would very likely not have an accretion disk, as the companion would be unable to send over any material BH's don't let what's in the horizon out unless outside is verrrrrrrrrrrry cold (the universe will have to keep expanding for a long tine before it's cold enough for even isolated stellar-mass BHs to lose net mass to evaporation) or the BH is very small. On the ot…

Hmmm. I wouldn't have guessed that! I suppose it does make sense that SMBHs in galactic centers could have relatively significant accretion disks. Thanks for the informative response.

Re: LIGO and Virgo announce the detection of a black hole binary merger

#70

> ...meaning that energy equivalent to about 1 solar mass was emitted as gravitational waves during the collision. Damn. That's something like 179 100 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 J That's an insane amount of energy. It's equivalent to what you would get if you converted the entire mass of the sun into pure energy.

Well, yea - that's what they mean when they say "1 solar mass".

You and I might know that but not everyone has studied physics.
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