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Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

nytimes.com

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Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#61

Post by Lazare »

forapurpose wrote: post #14

There have been several coups or other undemocratic assumptions of power recently: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, China (Xi seems to have made himself dictator-for-life), Turkey, and to a degree in Japan, in at least one Eastern European country, and even in France (which AFAIK now has an indefinite state of emergency curtailing rights of citizens). I wonder how much and in what way they are related to the U.S. changing its…

> There have been several coups or other undemocratic assumptions of power recently: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, China (Xi seems to have made himself dictator-for-life), Turkey, and to a degree in Japan, in at least one Eastern European country, and even in France (which AFAIK now has an indefinite state of emergency curtailing rights of citizens).

Saudi Arabia and China have not had coups, and are not democratic countries, so any change is "undemocratic", but that's not a chance and means little. Xi's actions are hardly different that Deng's or, before him, Mao's. Lumping them in with Turkey, which is experiencing a slow motion coup, is bizarre.

Conversely, Japan and France have neither had coups nor an "undemocratic assumption of power", so clearly don't belong in the same list as Turkey. Lebanon I'm not really familiar with, and I don't even know what Eastern European country you're talking about, so I can't comment on them, but the rest of your list makes no sense. Nor does Zimbabwe fit on your list; the coup is a best neutral in terms of democracy, and could be a step towards greater democracy.

> I wonder how much and in what way they are related to the U.S. changing its long-standing policy from being the guarantor of international order, and from being an advocate for democracy as a universal right

Unless you're talking about the second President Bush's much maligned (and mostly unsuccessful) foreign policy, I have no idea what you're talking about. The US has not traditionally advocated for democracy as a universal right, and it spent much of the Cold War backing dictators and, in some cases, overthrowing elected governments.

> That trend, away from democracy,

By which you mean "Turkey"? (And maybe Lebanon; again I'm unfamiliar with the situation there.) I see no trend.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#62

Post by mschuster91 »

varjag wrote: post #57
mschuster91 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked for those cases where US interests aligned with UN interests. For everything else, not so much.

There is no evidence that UN is a U.S. puppet. Russia used SC veto 7 times just in last 3 years. The last time USA has blocked any resolution was 2011.

What I meant is that military intervention backed by the UN is more likely when the US wants said military intervention.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#63

Post by tankenmate »

zimzim wrote: post #40
gaius wrote: post #33

Pre-Mugabe Zimbabwe was known as "the breadbasket of Africa" for the productivity of its farms. Mugabe brought economic collapse and famine, while living a life of luxury and stashing billions overseas. Hopefully whoever comes next will be a better leader.

It was a different country. how well can ex-slaves and bushman run a country? democracy is not rooted in every culture, greed is :\ EDIT: just to be clear not every person in charge is ex-slave or something, but as a country even if they started financially strong it does not mean they had the culture to support it

Greed per se is not the problem, it is greed above all else. The number one problem in Zimbabwe is corruption. Only once there is a strong body, be that courts, a corruption commission, or similar, that has the power to hold those in power to account then little will change. Zimbabwe badly need an effective rule of law that provides justice to all.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#64

Post by kbart »

misja111 wrote: post #9
igitur wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And initially he was a very good leader. But lately, if you listen to his speeches, he is downright senile. And he can hardly walk on his own. That's why the general convention of serving a maximum of 2 or 3 terms is so important.

Long before he turned senile, he turned corrupt. He has ruined his country economically. This is the real reason for a maximum of 2 or 3 terms. Power corrupts.

"This is the real reason for a maximum of 2 or 3 terms. Power corrupts."

It's still easy to be gamed, see Putin-Medvedev-Putin switch.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#65

Post by badosu »

lgbr wrote: post #47
mrpopo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, please don't call the U.S. the "guarantor of international order". It sounds as if the U.S. were a benefactor to the world. It is not, it has been all political alliances and power-play. Sometimes the U.S. backed democratic leaders, sometimes not (c.f. Pinochet, Park Chung Hee...). Second, I myself consider the degradation of the current state of affairs in the world to be due to the global slowdown of…

While the US often acts reprehensibly, such as in the case of Chile, Iraq, and so on, the overwhelming majority of the international influence the US exerts is positive. The entire stability of Europe, Japan, South Korea (although Park Chung Hee was a dictator), and a handful of other countries was built by the US government. Counter-examples are easy to list, but somehow the more numerous positive examples are forgo…

> While the US often acts reprehensibly, such as in the case of Chile, Iraq, and so on, the overwhelming majority of the international influence the US exerts is positive. (Citation Needed)

Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#66

Post by mrpopo »

lgbr wrote: post #59
mrpopo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You talk as if I am forgetting the positive contributions of U.S. interventions, but I clearly specified that sometimes the U.S. contributed to democracy, sometimes not. My point was the U.S. did not do this out of pure goodwill, but to preserve their political alliances and world leader position. It is fair to discuss if the global economic growth is slowing or not. I still think that is the case, excluding China, I…

> You talk as if I am forgetting the positive contributions of U.S. interventions, but I clearly specified that sometimes the U.S. contributed to democracy, sometimes not. You said "It sounds as if the U.S. were a benefactor to the world. It is not...". In the majority if cases, the U.S. has clearly had a positive influence, meaning that it is indeed a benefactor to the world. > I still think that is the case, exclud…

The U.S. had a net positive influence on their historical allied countries and an overall negative influence on their geopolitical opponents. I will not dwelve into which one is the majority of the world, that is not the point.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#67

Post by TausAmmer »

zimzim wrote: post #40
gaius wrote: post #33

Pre-Mugabe Zimbabwe was known as "the breadbasket of Africa" for the productivity of its farms. Mugabe brought economic collapse and famine, while living a life of luxury and stashing billions overseas. Hopefully whoever comes next will be a better leader.

It was a different country. how well can ex-slaves and bushman run a country? democracy is not rooted in every culture, greed is :\ EDIT: just to be clear not every person in charge is ex-slave or something, but as a country even if they started financially strong it does not mean they had the culture to support it

Where there is leader(governing group/body/system), there is power trip, have not seen otherwise. There will never be something different.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#68

Post by lgbr »

badosu wrote: post #65
lgbr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the US often acts reprehensibly, such as in the case of Chile, Iraq, and so on, the overwhelming majority of the international influence the US exerts is positive. The entire stability of Europe, Japan, South Korea (although Park Chung Hee was a dictator), and a handful of other countries was built by the US government. Counter-examples are easy to list, but somehow the more numerous positive examples are forgo…

> While the US often acts reprehensibly, such as in the case of Chile, Iraq, and so on, the overwhelming majority of the international influence the US exerts is positive. (Citation Needed) Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

I cited examples right after where you cut off the quote.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#69

Post by pjc50 »

pizza wrote: post #56
netsharc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A world government with a force would be an interesting concept. Corrupt African states has lead to their citizens fleeing to Europe with EU solutions being band-aids like giving Libyan coast guard ships and money to prevent the ships from leaving Libyan waters, the better solution would be to fix corruption and help development in the refugees' home countries, but the EU governments can't do that, can they (giving t…

How many Libyans go to Europe by boat..?

Quite a lot: http://www.euronews.com/2017/06/26/more-than-30-migrant-boat...

Not all of them make it. The vessels aren't particularly seaworthy, and they're not allowed to dock, so effectively they dump their passengers in open boats and rely on the coastguard rescuing them and taking them to Italian soil.

Re: Zimbabwe's Military in Apparent Takeover, Says It Has Custody of President

#70

Post by pjc50 »

zimzim wrote: post #40
gaius wrote: post #33

Pre-Mugabe Zimbabwe was known as "the breadbasket of Africa" for the productivity of its farms. Mugabe brought economic collapse and famine, while living a life of luxury and stashing billions overseas. Hopefully whoever comes next will be a better leader.

It was a different country. how well can ex-slaves and bushman run a country? democracy is not rooted in every culture, greed is :\ EDIT: just to be clear not every person in charge is ex-slave or something, but as a country even if they started financially strong it does not mean they had the culture to support it

Ah, colonialism. Construct a system designed to prevent people from having autonomy or self-governance while shipping their value overseas, then smear them as primitives when they take over and have difficulty with autonomy.
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