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Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

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Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#61
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing enough for everyone to exist is trivial, what's distinctly non-trivial is satisfying those needs in an economic system like ours. Right now our economy requires access to necessities to be precarious, to motivate people to sell their time and most of their freedom to Those In Charge to buy them. The alternative to this, where everyone has what they need to exist without submitting to one leader or another,…

The only reason we have enough is because of that economic system. Take a look at Venezuela. It ought to terrify everyone that so many take what we have for granted.

Perfect resource allocation requires a perfectly incorruptible coordinator. Perfect socialism might become possible (and even preferable) if/when AGI is solved.

Iain Banks puts it nicely in his "A Few Notes on the Culture" essay [0]:

"Let me state here a personal conviction that appears, right now, to be profoundly unfashionable; which is that a planned economy can be more productive - and more morally desirable - than one left to market forces.

"The market is a good example of evolution in action; the try-everything-and-see-what- -works approach. This might provide a perfectly morally satisfactory resource-management system so long as there was absolutely no question of any sentient creature ever being treated purely as one of those resources. The market, for all its (profoundly inelegant) complexities, remains a crude and essentially blind system, and is - without the sort of drastic amendments liable to cripple the economic efficacy which is its greatest claimed asset - intrinsically incapable of distinguishing between simple non-use of matter resulting from processal superfluity and the acute, prolonged and wide-spread suffering of conscious beings.

"It is, arguably, in the elevation of this profoundly mechanistic (and in that sense perversely innocent) system to a position above all other moral, philosophical and political values and considerations that humankind displays most convincingly both its present intellectual [immaturity and] - through grossly pursued selfishness rather than the applied hatred of others - a kind of synthetic evil.

"Intelligence, which is capable of looking farther ahead than the next aggressive mutation, can set up long-term aims and work towards them; the same amount of raw invention that bursts in all directions from the market can be - to some degree - channelled and directed, so that while the market merely shines (and the feudal gutters), the planned lases, reaching out coherently and efficiently towards agreed-on goals. What is vital for such a scheme, however, and what was always missing in the planned economies of our world's experience, is the continual, intimate and decisive participation of the mass of the citizenry in determining these goals, and designing as well as implementing the plans which should lead towards them.

Of course, there is a place for serendipity and chance in any sensibly envisaged plan, and the degree to which this would affect the higher functions of a democratically designed economy would be one of the most important parameters to be set... but just as the information we have stored in our libraries and institutions has undeniably outgrown (if not outweighed) that resident in our genes, and just as we may, within a century of the invention of electronics, duplicate - through machine sentience - a process which evolution took billions of years to achieve, so we shall one day abandon the grossly targeted vagaries of the market for the precision creation of the planned economy."

[0] http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#62
post #16
post #8

An incredible article, it seems so clear the way it is stated. If demand is the problem, as stated in the article, would a basic-income, providing extra income and arguably more free time for consumers usher in a new "Golden Age" of growth as we have seen post-WWII?

You don't even need basic income. Just let people's incomes rise at the same rate the economy grows instead of funneling all gains to the business owners like it happened over the last 30 years or so. Unfortunately in the US the Republicans seem hell bent to accelerate the trend towards more income concentration at the top with their tax plans. I don't know how to change this realistically. It probably needs some cha…

Just let people's incomes rise at the same rate the economy grows

What do you mean? Have you considered the relationship between income and the "rate the economy grows"?

funneling all gains to the business owners

Yes, the accumulation of capital gains should rightly go to the owners of capital.

Republicans seem hell bent to accelerate the trend towards more income concentration at the top with their tax plans.

Those at the bottom of the income spectrum pay virtually no taxes, so yes, tax cuts should be directed towards those that actually pay taxes (upper-middle and upper income earners), and who are, arguably, more skilled in deploying capital in ways which are productive.

I don't know how to change this realistically.

Income inequality will not be resolved through transfer payments or redistribution - it will be solved through job skills training and growth in labor production.

To put it simply: no poor person has ever gotten me a job.

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally they can't, but that's not what the concept is aiming at. What we can do is to drop costs of things people need (or want) in their daily lives to the point that supply/demand basically stops working for them on an aggregate scale. If we do this to the point that any person can live a full life and participate in the society at large without having to exchange labour for resources or worrying about their…

> Healthcare We'd have to either normalize suicide or prevent aging in order to get to a world where the demand for healthcare is basically met for everyone. Before we even get there, we've still got a lot of people whose healthcare costs are infinite with current technology. The NHS is fantastic, it doesn't operate in a post-scarcity environment.

Right. Healthcare seems like probably the last thing that has a chance to enter post-scarcity environment, simply because as long as people get sick and die, there's always something to spend more resources on. But solving food and shelter would be a good start.

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#64
post #44
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why do you think this is the case. (I am one of those people who thinks people should have the same salaries, btw.) What exactly do you mean by "value"? Can you give some examples? To add: I don't think there is a meaningful comparison of importance of two professions that depend on each other. It's like asking, which part of the car provides more value for the user? Is it the engine or the wheels?

For better or worse, production workers are seen as fungible and managers (ideally) have deep domain expertise and knowledge of the company's operations that allow them to multiply the efficiency of the people working under them. I am aware that in reality this is not always the case. Edit: In your car analogy, the management aren't the engine; they're the driver.

> For better or worse, production workers are seen as fungible

Everybody in this thread agrees that it is indeed the case. However, the mystery is why some people see it that way.

> managers (ideally) have deep domain expertise and knowledge of the company's operations

The point of the car analogy was that without workers, managers are nothing, just like car without wheels or engine is useless. In that situation, why would you say one is more important?

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#65
post #39
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tax+spend; not supporting 'trickle down' economics w/r/t other gov't policies, actually enforcing monopoly laws, regulating other areas in favor of small business (e.g. FCC used to have media ownership laws to keep media companies smaller) etc.. if everyone has more money but there is no cap on the top, things will just get more expensive, and then more basic income will be provided, and the cycle will continue.. not…

I wonder how things would work out if we had a system where companies beyond a certain size are strongly discouraged. I think the economy would be much healthier if we had many small businesses instead of behemoths like apple and Google

Small business employ the plurality of Americans. Also, you made a disparaging comment towards Republicans earlier, and I just want to point out that Google, MS, Apple, etc. etc. are virtually all staffed by liberals and Democrats. Oh, and those Wallstreet bankers that seem to be perpetually in the left's cross hairs? Democrat, democrat, democrat.

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#66
post #62
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even need basic income. Just let people's incomes rise at the same rate the economy grows instead of funneling all gains to the business owners like it happened over the last 30 years or so. Unfortunately in the US the Republicans seem hell bent to accelerate the trend towards more income concentration at the top with their tax plans. I don't know how to change this realistically. It probably needs some cha…

Just let people's incomes rise at the same rate the economy grows What do you mean? Have you considered the relationship between income and the "rate the economy grows"? funneling all gains to the business owners Yes, the accumulation of capital gains should rightly go to the owners of capital. Republicans seem hell bent to accelerate the trend towards more income concentration at the top with their tax plans. Those…

"What do you mean? Have you considered the relationship between income and the "rate the economy grows"?"

I have considered that. In my view wages of the middle class should grow at the same rate the top incomes grow. To me that would indicate a healthy and long term sustainable economy.

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#67
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general the supervisor or manager provides more value than an employee under his command. Exceptions to that are at least as common as employees having higher wages than managers and supervisors.

I don't understand why do you think this is the case. (I am one of those people who thinks people should have the same salaries, btw.) What exactly do you mean by "value"? Can you give some examples? To add: I don't think there is a meaningful comparison of importance of two professions that depend on each other. It's like asking, which part of the car provides more value for the user? Is it the engine or the wheels?

There is an entire field of study about this, with maybe millions of students.

Why a wage is what it is might be one of the most described, modeled and studied things out there. A simple explanation is that the supply of people that can do the managing is lower than the demand for it.

Clearly, the cases where managers earn less than the people they manage follow the same rule (i.e. sports coaches, movie directors, etc).

About the comparison: It depends, if you have a car without engine and a car without wheels, which one is easier for you to fix.

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#68
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way a post-scarcity society could come to exist is if we stop doing any activity in the physical world and everything moves online. We've actually gone quite a long way down that road already. I wouldn't be surprised if in 100 years or so, most physical-world activity has stopped. Once basic electricity, internet connectivity, food, etc. is provided automatically, and all work and leisure is conducted online, the…

That's quite an insight. I've never connected those concepts together before. There's a staggeringly long list of things that are now post-scarcity because they're digital. Each item used to be a luxury available to few instead of a thing that scales to all. So here's a new way to ask an old question: What's something that should be post-scarcity, but currently isn't?

Textbooks? There are many ebooks that are legitimately available for free, but textbooks are typically expensive.

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#69
post #65
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how things would work out if we had a system where companies beyond a certain size are strongly discouraged. I think the economy would be much healthier if we had many small businesses instead of behemoths like apple and Google

Small business employ the plurality of Americans. Also, you made a disparaging comment towards Republicans earlier, and I just want to point out that Google, MS, Apple, etc. etc. are virtually all staffed by liberals and Democrats. Oh, and those Wallstreet bankers that seem to be perpetually in the left's cross hairs? Democrat, democrat, democrat.

Are you disputing that the Republican tax plans are mainly aimed towards lowering taxes for upper incomes and most of the benefits would flow to the top 0.x percent? I don't think facts are disparaging.

Re: Post-Scarcity Economics (2013)

#70
post #66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let people's incomes rise at the same rate the economy grows What do you mean? Have you considered the relationship between income and the "rate the economy grows"? funneling all gains to the business owners Yes, the accumulation of capital gains should rightly go to the owners of capital. Republicans seem hell bent to accelerate the trend towards more income concentration at the top with their tax plans. Those…

"What do you mean? Have you considered the relationship between income and the "rate the economy grows"?" I have considered that. In my view wages of the middle class should grow at the same rate the top incomes grow. To me that would indicate a healthy and long term sustainable economy.

In my view wages of the middle class should grow at the same rate the top incomes grow.

What does this mean? What do you mean should and who is in the "top"? By should, you mean we should peg "middle-class" wages to some index that will track the growth of "the top" - thereby forcing privately owned business owners to pay what the government tells them to? And what if they can't, they just have to close up shop? Can they fire workers?

I think you need to consider more deeply the implications of you ideas, and concepts such as what people, governments, or institutions "should" be forced to do.

Also, the "top" earners in the USA don't generate labor income, they accumulate capital. If you want to piggyback off their efforts to steer capital in a more productive manner, thereby growing it, you can open up a online brokerage account and buy some shares of any publicly traded company you want.

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