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The privilege of risk

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Re: The privilege of risk

#61

Post by dvt »

PatientTrades wrote: post #46
dvt wrote: post #7

Risk becomes a vehicle by which privilege reinforces itself – only the privileged can take risks and only risk is rewarded. This is patently untrue. My parents emigrated to the States in 1997 (from the post-Communist Romania) with two briefcases, two kids, and $2,000 -- hardly privileged. After their Visas expired, we technically had illegal immigrant status (after a few thousand dollars in lawyer fees and many years…

$1M house in Southern California isn't really saying much. Down here in San Diego: 3 bedroom, 2 baths, 1000 square feet homes going for $1M. The housing market doesn't reflect real wealth imo. Owning a house in Southern Cal is akin to playing hot potato

This is very true, I never claimed otherwise. It was always my dad's dream to own a nice house in Southern California. He got it.

Re: The privilege of risk

#62

Post by leereeves »

true_religion wrote: post #24
dvt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But your parents have $1M house, and you have a six figure job. Are you not the definition of a rich trust-fund kid? (To be fair, I don't know your age) No. And here's why: I grew up dirt poor. I never was able to attend computer club chess club, or what have you. My parents, when I was in high school, were constantly working (often under the table and at odd hours). They could also never afford to give me any mone…

My...700,000 for a house will you look at these poor people? I'm a child of immigrants as well but I won't pretend that my parents did anything more than live up to the expectations bred into them during to their social class. Class Privilege is a good thing, one that we should be so lucky to give our children.

Seems clear enough: dvt's parents were poor when dvt was a child but eventually earned wealth. dvt certainly wasn't claiming their parents are poor now, so your snark about the house is based on a misunderstanding.

Re: The privilege of risk

#63

Post by stretchwithme »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #14
stretchwithme wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right on. The US was not settled by privileged people who could go back and live with their parents. Many came with absolutely nothing. Having grown up poor myself, I find it strange to have people classify me as privileged. They see success and make up their own story about it. The ideas they've accepted are more important than the real world.

Didn't almost all of our founders come from privilege?

The settling of the country started many decades before the founding of the United States. The Pilgrims arrived in 1620, 156 years before independence was declared.

Re: The privilege of risk

#64

Post by Tomminn »

maccard wrote: post #34
Tomminn wrote: post #3

I remember talking to a friend, who was stressed about the risk in her next career move, and I said: "Realistically, the worst case scenario is that you have to move back in with your parents for a while, and I'm pretty sure they'd be stoked to have you back." And she just burst out laughing. Because it had never occurred to her that that is exactly the limit of how much it was possible for her to materially suffer.

I feel like you're totally missing the point here. Not everyone can move back in with their parents for a while, I certainly can't. Despite earning an above average salary (nothing in comparison to bay area) in the UK, I still couldn't afford to just drop my job, and take a year to try and earn some money, I'd starve to death.

That is my point. You, on the other hand, are someone who has to deal with actual downside risk.

Re: The privilege of risk

#65

Post by slededit »

Terr_ wrote: post #56
ballenf wrote: post #36

I've always puzzled at Jesus' parable of the talents: > ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where yo…

The most charitable interpretation I can think of (as an agnostic) is that the servant who took no risks with their investment is like a person who avoids chances to do good because they are afraid to "lose" under the existing system of Jewish religious rules. An example of this is in the parable of the Good Samaritan, where ostensibly-virtuous people ignore the victim, because to intervene would make them ritually-u…

Digging the hole and hiding 80 lbs of silver (what a talent was) would have been more work than just depositing it with the bank. So his aversion to loss caused him to expend more effort for a worse outcome.

Re: The privilege of risk

#66

Post by omilu »

true_religion wrote: post #24
dvt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But your parents have $1M house, and you have a six figure job. Are you not the definition of a rich trust-fund kid? (To be fair, I don't know your age) No. And here's why: I grew up dirt poor. I never was able to attend computer club chess club, or what have you. My parents, when I was in high school, were constantly working (often under the table and at odd hours). They could also never afford to give me any mone…

My...700,000 for a house will you look at these poor people? I'm a child of immigrants as well but I won't pretend that my parents did anything more than live up to the expectations bred into them during to their social class. Class Privilege is a good thing, one that we should be so lucky to give our children.

You missed the part when he explained his parents came to america with 2k and 2 kids. This guy wasn't born with a silver spoon.

Re: The privilege of risk

#67

Post by jvdizzle »

dvt wrote: post #7

Risk becomes a vehicle by which privilege reinforces itself – only the privileged can take risks and only risk is rewarded. This is patently untrue. My parents emigrated to the States in 1997 (from the post-Communist Romania) with two briefcases, two kids, and $2,000 -- hardly privileged. After their Visas expired, we technically had illegal immigrant status (after a few thousand dollars in lawyer fees and many years…

It's interesting. Every time the topic of privilege is brought up, usually the first thing someone who disagrees with the concept of privilege does is talk about themselves. Understanding privilege is not about talking about yourself. Privilege is about recognizing that there are people are who not you, and who did not have your story.

Well, I'm going to break the bad news to you... You were lucky. You're lucky you yourself aren't disabled. You're lucky you aren't black, or LGBT. You're lucky you had two parents, and both of them were healthy enough to work. Et cetera. Maybe you are privileged in some ways, but underprivileged in others.

Privilege is about recognizing that there are many others whose identities reduce their ability to take the same risks in a society that is not free of biases or oppression. Privilege is relative.

Privilege is not about disqualifying your experience or story. Privilege is about equity. And I'm not talking about shares or options. I'm talking about recognizing that others may need a bit of uplifting to get to the same place as you.

Your family was able to take risks, and profit from it. I hope you can stand in someone else's shoes who did not have the same fortune as you, and reflect so that yourself are not becoming a vehicle that reinforces privilege.

Re: The privilege of risk

#68

Post by mindslight »

jvdizzle wrote: post #67
dvt wrote: post #7

Risk becomes a vehicle by which privilege reinforces itself – only the privileged can take risks and only risk is rewarded. This is patently untrue. My parents emigrated to the States in 1997 (from the post-Communist Romania) with two briefcases, two kids, and $2,000 -- hardly privileged. After their Visas expired, we technically had illegal immigrant status (after a few thousand dollars in lawyer fees and many years…

It's interesting. Every time the topic of privilege is brought up, usually the first thing someone who disagrees with the concept of privilege does is talk about themselves. Understanding privilege is not about talking about yourself. Privilege is about recognizing that there are people are who not you, and who did not have your story. Well, I'm going to break the bad news to you... You were lucky. You're lucky you y…

"Privilege" is about creating a race to the bottom pity party, whether the "discussion" is about rights being directly oppressed, economic power, or standing in one's communities. It's a sure-fire way to divide the plebs, which is a sure-fire way to sell sensationalist rags (among other goals).

We used to consider home ownership a universal idea to strive for. Ignoring the intrinsic negative practicalities of ownership, and ignoring the imperfection of traditional "everybody" not actually meaning everybody - it was still a constructive goal to work towards! Yet witness upthread, someone is getting shamed because their parents happen to own a house! Good luck getting that person to understand your cause - why should they bother empathizing at all when the inevitable outcome is to still be picked on for having the material and intellectual means to put a sheet of plastic over the top of one's cardboard box when it rains?

This article frames risk taking as a "privilege", rather than a core result of the technology called civilization. If you want to talk about perpetuated systemic inequality and oppression, I'm right there with you. If you want to talk about the downside from risks being externalized, I'm right there with you. But focusing on what luckier people have, especially as some form of original sin, is a zero sum game and a sure path to ruin.

Re: The privilege of risk

#69

Post by dvt »

jvdizzle wrote: post #67
dvt wrote: post #7

Risk becomes a vehicle by which privilege reinforces itself – only the privileged can take risks and only risk is rewarded. This is patently untrue. My parents emigrated to the States in 1997 (from the post-Communist Romania) with two briefcases, two kids, and $2,000 -- hardly privileged. After their Visas expired, we technically had illegal immigrant status (after a few thousand dollars in lawyer fees and many years…

It's interesting. Every time the topic of privilege is brought up, usually the first thing someone who disagrees with the concept of privilege does is talk about themselves. Understanding privilege is not about talking about yourself. Privilege is about recognizing that there are people are who not you, and who did not have your story. Well, I'm going to break the bad news to you... You were lucky. You're lucky you y…

You not only misunderstand what privilege is, but you also misunderstand what the article is about. First, let me quote @mindslight who makes a great point:

This article frames risk taking as a "privilege", rather than a core result of the technology called civilization. If you want to talk about perpetuated systemic inequality and oppression, I'm right there with you. If you want to talk about the downside from risks being externalized, I'm right there with you. But focusing on what luckier people have, especially as some form of original sin, is a zero sum game and a sure path to ruin.

As he says, the article frames risk taking as privilege. In fact, this is 100% absolutely provably not true. People of all socioeconomic strata take risks habitually. That was the point of my post.

Second of all, you misunderstand what privilege is. You say "Privilege is about recognizing that there are people are who not you, and who did not have your story." -- I submit that this makes no sense. Privilege is not recognizing that there are people who are not you (that's simply not being a sollipsist). Further, you're obviously not talking about Bill Gates' kids -- although they, like me, and like those born in the slums of Rio, have their own stories.

You're talking, from what I gather, about those with less than, say average, "original conditions" -- someone that's an orphan, a widow, a handicapped person, a disenfranchised person, and so on. Privilege is also not about equity, it's about charity. (which is by all accounts, a virtue). It's about helping those that are less well off. Equity is about egalitarianism, a discussion about privilege is decidedly not.

Finally, you make the oddly accusatory claim: "I hope you can stand in someone else's shoes who did not have the same fortune as you, and reflect so that yourself are not becoming a vehicle that reinforces privilege." I hope that all your passion about privilege yields a bit more than reflection. I'm a Christian and as you can imagine, prayer is quite important to me, and yet I still volunteer in LA's Skid Row and donate money whenever I can: because that is the fruit of this labor of privilege, not merely reflecting so you don't "become a vehicle that reinforces privilege" (whatever that means).

Re: The privilege of risk

#70

Post by dwaltrip »

This is the Matthew principle in action (a.k.a the power law or Pareto distribution). In this particular example, powerful positive feedback loops are at work.

This stuff is everywhere -- from tiny microscopic processes, to most skill-based human endeavors, all the way up to many grand cosmological dynamics.

Now, humans are not lifeless particles, and our awareness gives us the ability to tweak the systems in which we operate, to a certain degree. But we can't entirely eliminate the existence of power law distributions and positive feedback loops.

We instead must work to mitigate and dampen some of the less desirable effects. We should be able to safely reduce the extremities of some of these distributions, as well as shifting entire curves further along one axis, bringing increased benefits to all.

Note: the above comment includes some new conceptual articulations & evolutions for me. Thoughtful feedback/ responses are kindly appreciated.

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