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6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

fivethirtyeight.com

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Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#61

Post by peteretep »

vim_wannabe wrote: post #60
peteretep wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read the link, and you've linked to a YouTube video of some guy opining into a camera as some kind of primary source. Awesome.

The article you posted has been updated with 2016 info: >The most recent Eurostat data for the 28 EU countries also puts Sweden in the top spot.

A number that had decreased since the influx of Muslim refugees, a fact you'd know if you'd read the article.

When people tell you you're a racist it's because deliberately mischaracterise things to support a false narrative.

Do you not understand you're lying or does your prejudice make you not care?

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#62

Post by webwanderings »

erikb wrote: post #42
pjc50 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not true that the Left is more liberal. They are more socialist, which is simply not listed in these article's diagrams This is an important point which trying to ram non-US political parties into a US-based single left-right spectrum does not account for. Another important distinction which people miss is "Islam" (the religion) vs "Islamism" (its involvement in politics).

Yes, in Germany left means Socialist, right means Fascist, and the differentiation between conservatism and progressiveness is actually something you can find in each of the corners. I also believe that Germany is not the only country like that. E.g. I have just finished watching season 3 of the tv show Narcos and it seems to me as if in Colombia this distinction also exists and it is enforced even stronger, with the…

Are you asserting 'Islam is political' as in, Muslim citizens participate in civic duties of the land they call home? If yes, then you're correct. However, if you think Islam not being just a religion, is there to "take over" and "subjugate" then that's not only incorrect but instigating fear. The typical 'separation of Church and State' does not apply to Islam because there is no Church in Islam. What does apply is the Balance between person's Material World and Spiritual Faith (duties to the world she cohabits, and duty to the faith she follows) which by the way, has no clash. One cannot separate the two into different compartments. It may be a difficult concept to understand under a Christian lense.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#63

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

pjc50 wrote: post #47
tajen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. No party proposes a reduction of massive Muslim immigration, except this one. The fact that everyone categorizes anything that discusses immigration as "extreme-right" or "alt-right" doesn't help. Worse, it doesn't help diagnosing: I'm yet to see a good explanation by Democrats of why Trump got 62m votes (whether that's the majority or not isn't relevant, it's still 62m votes for a spoiled child), beyond "They'r…

> are there still British people in London This is the stupidest thing I've seen on HN today.

You should tell it to John Cleese:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJheODYpuEI

Many people feel the same but won't say it.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#64

Post by xorfish »

bildung wrote: post #37
VladTheImplier wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I urge you to read the "Wahlprogramm" with Google translate, the legal text that defines what a party stands for in this election, it's ~70 pages for each party, but there is a summary for every topic. http://www.bundestagswahl-bw.de/wahlprogramme_btwahl2017.htm... It's not much different from what the other parties aim to do. The only real one being, that the AFD wants a hard cap on immigration. If you read media co…

Practically everything in that program is right-wing: * strengthening the role of the president, weakening the parties (the weak presidential role in Germany is a direct result of the experiences in Nazi Germany) * reducing the size of the members of parliament * reducing payments for members of parliament (they currently earn around 10k/month) * introduction of direct voting (e.g. reducing complex matters to yes/no…

* introduction of direct voting (e.g. reducing complex matters to yes/no decisions)

As a Swiss I have to comment on this.

First, is this really a right-wing point?

Where I vehemently disagree is with the sentiment carried with the "explanation" of direct democracy that you added.

Every parliament will boil down complex issues to "simple" yes/no decisions. Or how do you imagine a parliament can vote on anything?

Furthermore a right to a referendum is literally just consulting the people for a yes/no vote that already happened in the parliament. In Switzerland you need to collect a certain amount of signatures of voters within 100 days to mandate a public vote on the exact law that was passed by the parliament. Changes in the constitution mandate a referendum.

Another part of Swiss democracy are popular initiatives. You can propose a change to the constitution like adding "The State mandates a minimal wage". If you gather enough signatures the people will vote if they want to add this to the constitution. If it passes, the executive is required to propose laws that implement the change.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#65

Post by boomboomsubban »

vacri wrote: post #13
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #2

The language used to describe AfD is strikingly similar to the one used to describe Trump supporters prior to the elections. The truth is, the influx of immigrants is a real problem in Germany, although in some places is felt more than in others. Normal people turn to AfD for help, not because they're aggressive or hateful. It's difficult to even have a civilized discussion about it without being labelled as "racist"…

It's a false equivalency, comparing Trump supporters to similar in other countries. The AfD gets 5% of the vote. Trump got nearly 50% of the vote. Every population has its extremist idiots, but for nearly 50% of voters to willingly cast their vote for such an obscenely obvious conman? No, the AfD situation is nothing like Trump - there is no danger of AfD 'running the show'.

Much of the difference is in electoral systems, and the same around ten percent that led to Trump could be necessary for a coalition and run much more of the show than they should.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#66

Post by erikb »

pluma wrote: post #53
erikb wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in Germany left means Socialist, right means Fascist, and the differentiation between conservatism and progressiveness is actually something you can find in each of the corners. I also believe that Germany is not the only country like that. E.g. I have just finished watching season 3 of the tv show Narcos and it seems to me as if in Colombia this distinction also exists and it is enforced even stronger, with the…

Maajid Nawaz would disagree with your assessment of Islam and Islamism. For Christianity politics and religion used to be as inseparable as they are for Islam today. Not so long ago most heads of state were subject to the Vatican (whether ceremonially or literally) and granted their authority by divine privilege alone. The separation of church and state in the Christian world is largely a relatively new phenomenon an…

That's a very new idea for my, so I have to think about it before I could argue for or against it. Thanks for opening up my mind for it.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#67

Post by Ryan001 »

You may have heard rumblings about a populist party poised to gain power in Germany’s election on Sept. 24 — or maybe you just heard that there’s an election coming up. The party vote might seem strange — candidates usually belong to parties already, the way they do in the U.S. — but it exists to make sure the Bundestag reflects the party preferences of the overall electorate. To achieve the right proportions, the total number of representatives in the Bundestag can vary with each federal election, but it is always at least 598. Unless a single party wins a simple majority — which is rare — multiple parties will need to join forces to form a governing coalition that, collectively makes up at least 50 percent of the Bundestag.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#68

Post by germanier »

VladTheImplier wrote: post #12
lyschoening wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalist movements regularly combine widely accepted populist left-wing positions with xenophobic ideas (and proceed to disregard the left-wing ones once in power). I live in Denmark; the Danish People's Party here is also very left-wing on niche social issues and uses that to trick people into voting for them. Trump used this strategy so well that you had followers of Bernie Sanders switching allegiances to vote…

They are voted into the Bundestag, where they must represent what they signed off to represent. You can't just 180 from what you defined as your goals, or the Verfassungsschutz can fuck a party over. Honestly, read their Election program. They have many things in common with even the left parties, like SPD and Die Linke. They are for the minimum wage, they want to extend unemployment benefits to be combined with the…

There is absolutely nothing legally binding about a Wahlprogramm. Our constitution is quite clear on that, Art. 38 Abs. 1:

Members of the German Bundestag shall be elected in general, direct, free, equal and secret elections. They shall be representatives of the whole people, not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#69

Post by tajen »

zimpenfish wrote: post #56
tajen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. No party proposes a reduction of massive Muslim immigration, except this one. The fact that everyone categorizes anything that discusses immigration as "extreme-right" or "alt-right" doesn't help. Worse, it doesn't help diagnosing: I'm yet to see a good explanation by Democrats of why Trump got 62m votes (whether that's the majority or not isn't relevant, it's still 62m votes for a spoiled child), beyond "They'r…

> everyone categorizes anything that discusses immigration as "extreme-right" or "alt-right" No, not anything, just those which are clearly racially motivated. > beyond "They're stupid racist biggots" That, largely, is why he got 62M votes. The US is a deeply racist country with catastrophic social and economic problems that are imagined to be the fault of "others" and "liberals" - he pandered to that demographic and…

Like I said, if your analysis for not listening to 62m people stops at putting them in a bucket of "They're are white supremacists", then all you get is Trump. Which you got. So it might be time to change your approach.

Haven't we been fighting for 20 years against prejudices? Is it time we stop having prejudices about 62m people who just elected the president, and start seeing them as individuals with a reasoning? Is your analysis complete about those people? How will politics evolve if one side closes ears and eyes to the facts brought up by the other side, just because it leads them to conclusions they don't like? Is it scientific not to acknowledge facts when they lead you to conclusions you don't like? "If Earth were heliocentric that would mean the center of the universe isn't the Earth, but that doesn't match with my interpretation of the Bible, therefore heliocentrism doesn't exist" ? Galileo went to jail for this. James Damore was also fired for digging up scientific facts people didn't like. And the Left reject facts when it doesn't match the conclusions they like.

If your analysis stops with a big prejudice against 62m people, it's time to change analysis.

NB: I'd like to acknowledge the other comment which debunks Sweden as not-the-European-capital-of-rape. Thank you for the facts.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#70

Post by vim_wannabe »

peteretep wrote: post #61
vim_wannabe wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you posted has been updated with 2016 info: >The most recent Eurostat data for the 28 EU countries also puts Sweden in the top spot.

A number that had decreased since the influx of Muslim refugees, a fact you'd know if you'd read the article. When people tell you you're a racist it's because deliberately mischaracterise things to support a false narrative. Do you not understand you're lying or does your prejudice make you not care?

Sweden has a much longer history with large immigration than just the 'recent influx' by which I assume you mean post-Libya immigration.

Many areas in Sweden have begun to face serious problems with having enough manpower to deal with crime. I know the video I posted was a bit shabby but they were discussing exactly that.

I think it's great that some countries are trying to make mass immigration work as it can be an example for the rest of us. I just don't think it's as clear cut as "This is good! This is good! This is good!" as there can be many reasons why Sweden still tops the EU rape rates and why the numbers may have decreased in recent years.

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