Matt Mullenweg is, in general, the nicest person in the world and if you can actually find a point of contention with him then you are doing something wrong.
Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
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Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#62I'm listening to this while posting this question, but if Matt is correct, does that mean Thesis and therefore all wordpress themes must be available for free?
No, even if Matt is correct people can still charge for themes.
GPL themes are able to be shared and redistributed however the end user sees fit.
That's the big difference. I can sell GPL themes myself for half price & they have no recourse. People can give GPL themes away for free and the developers have no recourse.
That's what the debate is about, whether themes inherit the GPL or not.
No one (that I know of) is arguing the GPL doesn't apply at all. What people, such as myself are arguing is that the GPL doesn't automatically apply to wOrdPRESS themes.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it.
"It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it." Not really. Thesis shouldn't be considered a derivative work. If it is, than any application that runs under Linux should also be considered a derivative work (you need Linux to run the app..right?). Should any app compiled us…
According to WordPress' intent stated here: http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ the themes are being considered a derivative work. I'm not a lawyer and honestly not a huge fan of the GPL, but this seems pretty clear-cut to me.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed.
"WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed." If the portions he used only contain function calls, I wouldn't consider it derivative work.
The Southern Freedom Law Network does consider that derivative: http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/
(I linked this in my other reply to you as well. Sorry for the repetition, but I think it was worth mentioning in both places.)
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#65"However, I think any astute economic analysis of economic systems of the way businesses and economies actually work would very quickly notice that a GPL does some very inorganic things to what are otherwise organic systems. So, from a systemic standpoint, on a systemic level, I disagree with the way the GPL perpetuates economies."
What on earth does that even mean? Also, he's one of the top three most important people by his own admission. Not any of the people who actually write the software that allows him to have a business.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#66I'm listening to this while posting this question, but if Matt is correct, does that mean Thesis and therefore all wordpress themes must be available for free?
No, even if Matt is correct people can still charge for themes. GPL themes are able to be shared and redistributed however the end user sees fit. That's the big difference. I can sell GPL themes myself for half price & they have no recourse. People can give GPL themes away for free and the developers have no recourse. That's what the debate is about, whether themes inherit the GPL or not. No one (that I know of) is a…
Let me see if I follow you. If Matt is correct, Chris can still charge for themes, but isn't required to make it available for free.
If you purchase Chris' theme, and sell it to me for $10, if Matt is correct, Chris has no claim against you, but if Chris is correct, he does.
Is all that right?
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#67They talk about CSS, JS and Images being excluded from the Wordpress GPL. Isn't this 99% of what most themes are made of?
What Chris has is not a theme but more of a dynamic theme generator.
What he should do is make Thesis additionally compatible with another CMS/Blogging tool so that the claims about Thesis delivering nothing but a blank page without Wordpress will no longer be true.
I appreciate the work of the open source community and donate to projects that I use most often but I also fully support Chris in being able to make a choice as to what license he wants to apply to his software.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it.
"It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it." Not really. Thesis shouldn't be considered a derivative work. If it is, than any application that runs under Linux should also be considered a derivative work (you need Linux to run the app..right?). Should any app compiled us…
"According to WordPress' intent stated here: http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ the themes are being considered a derivative work. I'm not a lawyer and honestly not a huge fan of the GPL, but this seems pretty clear-cut to me."
I don't see how they can automatically assume that all themes are under the GPL license. If you make a theme that does not use any existing wordpress code, it wouldn't be considered a derivative work.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#69I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference.
I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, so consider this 100% speculation based on my experience:
1. I use Thesis to manage almost all of my Wordpress sites because it makes my work significantly easier - Thesis extends WP in many useful ways that aren't built into WP core. I'm capable of doing it all myself in the code, but it's much easier to handle it in Thesis, which I think is a major reason why it's so popular.
2. If Thesis adopted the GPL, that means the code is open to be distributed and reapplied by anyone for free. That means Thesis features could legally be added to WP Core without paying Chris royalties. In Matt's eyes, that would be great - it would make WP better by incorporating many new features that users have demonstrated they like/want/need. (I'm pretty sure some former WP plugins have been added to core over time in this way.)
3. If Thesis' features are incorporated into WP Core, Chris' very profitable business evaporates almost immediately - the value is in the added functionality, not the stylesheet, so there'd be no reason for anyone to purchase Thesis. That means if Thesis is forced to adopt the GPL, Pearson stands to lose big time.
4. If Thesis' commercial license is legal (which the post at http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivati... makes a strong case for, depending on the definition of "derivative work" when it comes to software), any IP from Thesis incorporated into WP Core without permission or royalties would violate Chris' rights and potentially generate a valid IP infringement lawsuit.
5. Based on the tone of the conversation so far, I don't think Chris would ever give Matt (or anyone else) permission to use IP from Thesis in WP Core without a massive royalty payment.
6. If Matt wants to have the freedom to incorporate Thesis features into WP Core, but doesn't want to pay Chris royalties, he'd have a vested interest in publicly pressuring Chris into adopting the GPL, which is what Matt appears to be doing. Chris finds that offensive, so he's telling Matt to fuck off and sue him if he really wants to push the issue. To Chris, a lawsuit (which will be easier to defend because his business partner, Brian Clark, is an attorney) is a small price to pay to prevent losing millions in revenue, and he believes Matt will lose in the end.
Again, total speculation, but this is the only reason I can think of right now they'd go after each other so strongly. Thoughts?
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, even if Matt is correct people can still charge for themes. GPL themes are able to be shared and redistributed however the end user sees fit. That's the big difference. I can sell GPL themes myself for half price & they have no recourse. People can give GPL themes away for free and the developers have no recourse. That's what the debate is about, whether themes inherit the GPL or not. No one (that I know of) is a…
Let me see if I follow you. If Matt is correct, Chris can still charge for themes, but isn't required to make it available for free. If you purchase Chris' theme, and sell it to me for $10, if Matt is correct, Chris has no claim against you, but if Chris is correct, he does. Is all that right?
Almost - the GPL wouldn't apply to the CSS, JS or HTML of his themes, nor would the GPL nullify trademark and copyright. Still doesn't mean that his claim would hold up in court but it probably wouldn't be completely hopeless either.