Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#61

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 5:33 PM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #33

danblick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you mentioned both deliberate practice and 10,000 hours: are you familiar with Anders Ericsson's criticism of the 10,000 hours idea? Do you think it's still a concept worth talking about?

I liked Gladwell's response, that 10,000 hours was never intended as the goal it turned into. Rather, it was intended as an order of magnitude. More than that however, it was intended to call attention to the support structure being expert requires. I.E. nobody can get 10,000 hours in on their own.

Academia has put its nose up far in the air, it's become a career-crime to write anything for the public, so it falls to journalists to explain scientific results. Gladwell did a good job, then got manure tossed at him from scientists for daring to speak their results; and laypeople who flatly misunderstood what he said, or never read the articles/books and imagined what he said.

But the root problem is inequality - science has begun to see itself as an immaculate priesthood that mustn't mix with the plebs. Scientists should have been presenting their results to the public, but snobbishness now prevents this.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#62

Post by gmiller123456 » Mon, Aug 28, 2017, 6:56 PM UTC

hellbanner wrote: post #17

If you want to improve this chess, I recommend this playlist by International Master John Bartholomew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao9iOeK_jvU&index=5&list=PLl... I recommend https://lichess.org over chess.com for a far superior UI.

I'd have to recommend http://www.net-chess.com, but only because I wrote it.

But seriously on improving your chess. I think "how" you improve your chess play greatly depends on "why" you want to improve your play. Very few people actually plan to become professionals, so it does not make sense to try to copy their learning strategy, and in fact, a professional player probably isn't even good coach for the "casual but still serious" player.

I have been playing in the "serious but casual" arena for about 20 years now, the highest USCF rating I've achieved was about 1750. I used to be very active in the local chess community being cheif TD of at least one USCF rated tournament a week, sometimes 2 or three, and would play in about as many. I had seen many people start well below my rating and excel past me, and many stay well behind. I'd say the main difference between the 1800+ and the lower players is the amount of time they spend studying openings, games resulting from specific openings, and specific endgames. I've tried to study such things, but honestly every time I've tried I ended up reminding myself that I'm mostly playing for fun, and there is not point in torturing myself for something I just do for fun. So, if you actually enjoy sitting down and reading random books on theory, that's probably the way for you to go. But just because you don't want to do that, know there's a lot of fun to be had just playing people your own skill level, and you will (slowly) improve.

On a side note, there's some players who learn all the ins and outs of one archaic/unknown opening and use it all the time. These people usually rise to a certain level and platou, they might break 1600, or even 1800, but never 2000 without a significant change in strategy. The reason those openings are unknown is because they're usually weak. And a good player will take a slight advantage in the opening and leverage it for a win. At lower levels, a slight advantage in the opening usually isn't game determining.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#63

Post by adrice727 » Mon, Aug 28, 2017, 8:43 PM UTC

djg3 wrote: post #43

adrice727 wrote: post #15

One of the books that has had the biggest influence in my life is "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, the child chess prodigy of "Searching for Bobby Fischer" fame. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performa...

My experience was the complete opposite. I genuinely do not understand why this book is recommended. It's been years since I've read it but whenever i see it recommended it irritates me. Especially as people who do never list anything of actual significance that's to do with learning, other than clichés.

You're not the first person who has told me that.

It's been ~5 years since I read it, so I can't remember too many specifics. I was ~6 months into starting to learn to program and I think I would have probably given up if I hadn't read Waitzkin's book. He talks about how certain people tend to give on something if they struggle in order to protect their intelligence, to keep from feeling stupid or like a failure. It may be common sense but it's something that really clicked with me as I realized that it was something that I had done my whole life up until that point.

I kept going and eventually made a career transition into engineering. But something else happened that was actually much more important, and that was that I developed a much deeper understanding of and appreciation for the whole learning process. I was so tuned in to the whole thing that I would have these insights where I would I could pinpoint almost all of the things he talks about in the book in my personal experience. Years later, I’m able to make parallels in my present experience to all the things I experienced then, which in many cases provides some encouragement because I know I’m on the right path.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#64

Post by hellbanner » Tue, Sep 05, 2017, 7:31 PM UTC

gmiller123456 wrote: post #62

hellbanner wrote: post #17

If you want to improve this chess, I recommend this playlist by International Master John Bartholomew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao9iOeK_jvU&index=5&list=PLl... I recommend https://lichess.org over chess.com for a far superior UI.

I'd have to recommend http://www.net-chess.com , but only because I wrote it. But seriously on improving your chess. I think "how" you improve your chess play greatly depends on "why" you want to improve your play. Very few people actually plan to become professionals, so it does not make sense to try to copy their learning strategy, and in fact, a professional player probably isn't even good coach for the "casual bu…

Thanks for your advice and congrats on making a chess site!