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Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

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Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#61

Post by tanilama »

kingmanaz wrote: post #29
tanilama wrote: post #6

Automation is no cure for Japan. Their influence is waning rapidly, in many sectors. I would say that, with an aging population, Japan is turning into a stale country, culture wise and economy wise alike.

Thank goodness Japan doesn't share the West's bizarre fixation on economics. The market is a means to an end rather than an end in itself. If the economy is not furthering the interests of the Japanese people, its the economy which needs to be replaced, rather than the Japanese people.

That is not true. Economy is essential to the well being of the people. And it is not hard to see that once the Japanese people get old enough, the tax on the young people to sustain the old generation will become unbearable, the society is not going to hold itself, and I don't think we will be even talking about Japan at that point because no one would want to live there anymore

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#62

Post by pgodzin »

fiblye wrote: post #17
tanilama wrote: post #6

Automation is no cure for Japan. Their influence is waning rapidly, in many sectors. I would say that, with an aging population, Japan is turning into a stale country, culture wise and economy wise alike.

I think the average Japanese person doesn't care about how stale outsiders think they are, and they certainly don't feel like they need a "cure." If anything, society here is reverting more to a norm after being in a massive economic bubble. Really, it's honestly kind of freaky how often I see western media articles about how Japan needs to act now, or they're doomed to fail and their population will vanish. Yet I se…

But those countries were never as globally influential as Japan is and has been.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#63

Post by ericdykstra »

Here's a more in-depth look at the issue of immigration vs automation as it relates to Japan, from 2 Japanese economists: http://www.japanpolicyforum.jp/archives/economy/pt2014103018...

My commentary with support from that article follows:

A country with the population of Japan has no chance of maintaining a higher absolute GDP than countries with multiples of their population and more land to expand population. A policy to try to maintain their status in the world in terms of GDP is just silly.

If, however, Japan is more interested in the well-being of their population than some sort of international power-play, then this is the route to go. Population growth has no correlation to GDP per capita, so what's the point of increasing immigration of low-skilled workers? The upside is minimal, and the potential downside is unknown and unbounded.

I've been living in Japan for a little over 2 years now, and haven't talked to anyone who is worried about the long-term prospects of Japan's economy. There are structural changes that can and probably should be made, as outlined in the link above, but the country is not on some death-spiral like a lot of Western media would have you believe.

Is Japan a magical land of far-advanced technology, delicious food, safe and clean cities, beautiful countrysides, and amazing public transportation? Actually, yes; the "far-advanced technology" part just doesn't extend to mass-market consumer electronics in the same way any more.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#64

Post by cgarrigue »

mikekchar wrote: post #49

This is an opinion piece backed up with practically no information whatsoever. If you want to know about immigration policy in Japan, you need look no further Japan's ministry of foreign affairs website. For example, here are the categories where you can get a long term visa [0] You will notice there is a points system [1]. You need 70 points to get in. A degree gives you 10 points. A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 po…

Salaries in Japan are much lower than in the Bay Area: many Japanese companies use a salary grid and reaching the 10 million yen mark requires decades in the same company. It might be possible to get such a salary much earlier in some startups, and it is certainly possible for people detached from a foreign company. For everybody else following the same route as Japanese people the highly skilled professional visa is very difficult to get.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#65

Post by petre »

ufjvuc wrote: post #46
hiram112 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like two opposing narrators: 1. Employers: we need more immigration, not enough workers (willing to work for the shitty wages I want to pay). 2. Workers: automation is kill all the jobs (that pay well, but require few skills).

What if the workers just owned the means of production and there was an adequate safety net?

In the Eastern Block you had those two conditions checked and it didn't quite work out. This works in agriculture to some extent, but that's sector where automation already displaced most jobs and it will continue to do so.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#67

Post by matt4077 »

mc32 wrote: post #47
matt4077 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany comes to mind as a counterexample: a homogenous nation until the late 1950s, with no colonies to speak of, and jus sanguinis. Yet it transition to a functioning, diverse society today. And Japan is arguably paying a steep price for keeping their blood oh-so-pure: it's a society frozen in tradition and fear, with an economy in what is essentially a 20-year recession. Making robots care for the elderly will jus…

I think you're projecting western values on Japan. While we may see "dehumanization" they don't. Where you see a pornography fetish, they see it as an extension of their sexuality. For them it's progress. They have valued tradition and will continue to do so. It's not an ephemeral value they hold. Germany found a different path. It does not necessarily mean it's the one true path. And, long term, all societies will f…

I'm pretty sure the need for social interactions with other people is somewhat central to being human, and not a trait of culture. That's why humans are often called "social animals".

The suicide rate in japan being 3x European levels also seems to point at something being amiss, although that may indeed be an artefact of culture.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#68

Post by rdtsc »

ericdykstra wrote: post #63

Here's a more in-depth look at the issue of immigration vs automation as it relates to Japan, from 2 Japanese economists: http://www.japanpolicyforum.jp/archives/economy/pt2014103018... My commentary with support from that article follows: A country with the population of Japan has no chance of maintaining a higher absolute GDP than countries with multiples of their population and more land to expand population. A po…

> Is Japan a magical land of far-advanced technology

Is the technology really that far advanced. I understand it was in the 80s maybe? None of the devices I have are made by Japanese companies. None of the software I use is developed in Japan primarily. My car is but that's about it, but I picked it because of reliability not because of high tech features.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#69

Post by fzeroracer »

mikekchar wrote: post #49

This is an opinion piece backed up with practically no information whatsoever. If you want to know about immigration policy in Japan, you need look no further Japan's ministry of foreign affairs website. For example, here are the categories where you can get a long term visa [0] You will notice there is a points system [1]. You need 70 points to get in. A degree gives you 10 points. A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 po…

This ignores the issue that while Japan opens the red carpet for people to move and work in Japan, once you get past the welcoming mat you enter the vaunted Japanese Business Grind where you get to deal with incredibly long working hours, abuse and shitty pay. This is before you even start talking about black companies.

The reason why foreigners have trouble accepting Japanese culture is because work culture in Japan is so incredibly toxic except in rare circumstances that you don't bother adapting and you don't bother learning.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#70

Post by matt4077 »

alphaalpha101 wrote: post #55
Tsagadai wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Migration is a significant part of many countries growth. If Australia and New Zealand, for example, did not have such massive migration they would be effectively in serious depression. In both countries migration has added more than 1% to GDP growth for the last 30 years. Merely in recession is kind of surprising as for many other countries with such stagnant or declining population growth (low birthrates and barely…

As someone from NZ: we have an election in about 4 weeks, and this is a serious issue here. We know that this immigration-driven growth is not real growth.

> We know that this immigration-driven growth is not real growth.

Do you? Here's a list of US companies founded by immigrants:

Google, Apple (2nd gen), Intel, Tesla, ebay, Yahoo

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