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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

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Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#61

Post by srssays »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #53
tardygrad wrote: post #35

This was touched upon heavily in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt, an amazing book if you're interested in this sort of thing and part of Bill Gate's reading list where I first found it. This quote (by Bertrand Russell) stood out: "Social cohesion is a necessity, and mankind has never yet succeeded in enforcing cohesion by merely rational arguments. Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers: o…

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

The US hardly lacks collectivism, it is merely on an incomprehensibly grand scale. Pay your taxes and the state will help you, evade them and the state will punish you.

Certain African countries are strongly individualistic. The state is too weak to help or punish anybody. Infrastructure crumbles, crime and slavery abounds.

You seriously don't want to visit let alone live in a country that lacks collectivism.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#62

Post by RealityNow »

This is due to the entrenchment of neoliberalism since the 70s (famously Reagan in the 80s), the ideology that government's sole responsibility is to enforce free markets, any other function of government is bad, and that every aspect of life should be dictated by free markets. Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" sums it up. Rising wealth inequality is simply a byproduct of this.

When we're indoctrinated to suppress our humanity and see each other as self-interested profit-maximizing businesses rather than people, then it shouldn't come as any surprise that we're less cooperative.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#63

Post by summer_steven »

losteric wrote: post #57
Consultant32452 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

Socially advanced European nations do not have cooperation and social cohesion problems. What makes America unique?

Your making the classic mistake of equating the top 10% European countries like Switzerland and Sweden with the entire United States. Midwestern states, Washington state, and New England have cohesion.

Correct your perspective and see that the United States and Europe are fairly equal. Example: Italy has next to no cohesion.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#64

Post by summer_steven »

losteric wrote: post #59
tardygrad wrote: post #35

This was touched upon heavily in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt, an amazing book if you're interested in this sort of thing and part of Bill Gate's reading list where I first found it. This quote (by Bertrand Russell) stood out: "Social cohesion is a necessity, and mankind has never yet succeeded in enforcing cohesion by merely rational arguments. Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers: o…

I blame the Cold War and decades of counter-collectivism propaganda. An entire generation grew up in that atmosphere... they became the nation's teachers and leaders, influencing the opinions of subsequent generations. Game theory shows small changes in behaviors and opinions can have massive downstream impact, as demonstrated by this interactive demo: http://ncase.me/trust/ (HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

> [I blame the lack of] decades of counter-collectivism propaganda.

How do Eastern European countries fare then? How about China?

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#65

Post by efm »

Animats wrote: post #9

Here's a question. Do you belong to any organization which chooses its leaders democratically? That is, you get to vote, there's more than one candidate, and the incumbents and their designated successors sometimes get kicked out? Do you belong to any organization which has member meetings in which members can vote and make decisions binding on the organization?

My home owners association is democratic, though often there aren't many candidates.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#66

Post by didgeoridoo »

RealityNow wrote: post #62

This is due to the entrenchment of neoliberalism since the 70s (famously Reagan in the 80s), the ideology that government's sole responsibility is to enforce free markets, any other function of government is bad, and that every aspect of life should be dictated by free markets. Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" sums it up. Rising wealth inequality is simply a byproduct of this.…

Way to take that Thatcher quote out of context in order to reverse its meaning.

What she really said was:

"No government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first… There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate."

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#67

Post by reactor4 »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #66
RealityNow wrote: post #62

This is due to the entrenchment of neoliberalism since the 70s (famously Reagan in the 80s), the ideology that government's sole responsibility is to enforce free markets, any other function of government is bad, and that every aspect of life should be dictated by free markets. Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" sums it up. Rising wealth inequality is simply a byproduct of this.…

Way to take that Thatcher quote out of context in order to reverse its meaning. What she really said was: "No government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first… There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for…

The full quote doesn't reverse the meaning at all.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#68

Post by mbroncano »

summer_steven wrote: post #63
losteric wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socially advanced European nations do not have cooperation and social cohesion problems. What makes America unique?

Your making the classic mistake of equating the top 10% European countries like Switzerland and Sweden with the entire United States . Midwestern states, Washington state, and New England have cohesion. Correct your perspective and see that the United States and Europe are fairly equal. Example: Italy has next to no cohesion.

> Italy has next to no cohesion

References? In my personal experience that's far for accurate. If anything they are an extremely nationalistic country.

Living half way between the US and the EU has taught me otherwise - that the kind of cohesion between say Portugal and Sweden is surprisingly solid - once you know where to look e.g. social values, political views. Trying to do the same with someone from deep Texas and a little town in the Maine coast could be an interesting example of the opposite.

Having different languages even inside the same territory doesn't account for lack of cohesion. It's quite irrelevant in practice actually.

Cohesion seems to be mistaken these days by sheepishly following politicians into unnecessary wars and lacking critical thinking. Widespread ignorance is not cohesion, is divisive at best.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#69

Post by mbroncano »

summer_steven wrote: post #63
losteric wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socially advanced European nations do not have cooperation and social cohesion problems. What makes America unique?

Your making the classic mistake of equating the top 10% European countries like Switzerland and Sweden with the entire United States . Midwestern states, Washington state, and New England have cohesion. Correct your perspective and see that the United States and Europe are fairly equal. Example: Italy has next to no cohesion.

> Italy has next to no cohesion

References? In my personal experience that's far for accurate. If anything they are a extremely nationalistic country.

Living half way the US and the EU for half my life shows my otherwise - that the kind of cohesion between say Portugal and Sweden is surprising once you know where to look e.g. social values, political views. Trying to do the same with someone from deep Texas and a little town in the Maine coast could be an interesting example.

Having different languages even inside the same territory doesn't account for lack of cohesion. It's quite irrelevant in practice actually.

Cohesion seems to be mistaken these days by sheepishly following politicians into unnecessary wars and lacking critical thinking. Widespread ignorance is not cohesion.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#70

Post by brian-armstrong »

RealityNow wrote: post #62

This is due to the entrenchment of neoliberalism since the 70s (famously Reagan in the 80s), the ideology that government's sole responsibility is to enforce free markets, any other function of government is bad, and that every aspect of life should be dictated by free markets. Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" sums it up. Rising wealth inequality is simply a byproduct of this.…

You're going to try to point at such a large, complex phenomenon through a single cause?
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