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Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

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Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#61

Post by JoshMnem »

Many bootcamps are terrible and promise things that aren't possible. (People generally can't learn how to code professionally in 12 weeks.) The bootcamps that tend to deliver do so because they only accept people who already have put significant work into programming before they start the bootcamp.

I organize a programming club in Berkeley that meets twice per week (over 4,000 members on meetup.com), so I meet a lot of people who go through various bootcamps. I think that I could help demonstrate how to fix many of the problems with the entire bootcamp model, if we could obtain funding for opening a physical space in Berkeley. I've been doing it for over three years and have a pretty good idea about how to find people who will succeed, without limiting opportunities or even charging a lot of money.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#62

Post by austenallred »

jasode wrote: post #58
austenallred wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was not that the material itself was difficult to learn, but that knowing which direction to go in, or knowing what material to learn, was the more difficult part.

>, but that knowing which direction to go in But the coding bootcamp's curriculum and sequencing isn't necessarily superior. It could be as arbitrary or suboptimal as any low-rated 1-star book on Amazon. A curious programmer would actually be skeptical that the bootcamp has the proven syllabus for learning. Therefore, find a 5-star book on Javascript/Ruby on Amazon, and start with Ch 1. What evidence (not marketing m…

It's not that it's superior, it's that it exists. Now I could easily go back and burn through what I learned in 1/10 the time, but in the beginning I didn't know where to start or what I needed to learn, and spent an insane amount of time flailing and jumping around. Imagine not knowing Java from JavaScript.

You get caught up in all the arguments about which language/framework/tech of the day is the best because you don't know any better. For example, my initial Google search led me to learn Haskell because it's "the best language", using Vim because it's "the best editor." Looking back that's silly and absurd, and most people would agree that's not a wise way to start (inb4 'Haskell is actually...') but I didn't know that then. You're flying completely blind.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#63

Post by vinceguidry »

ellius wrote: post #14
austenallred wrote: post #7

There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start. First, to say there's no skills gap is insanity. I refuse to believe anyone in the industry actually believes that - even the worst bootcamps are placing folks, they just place folks that are not well prepared and shift the burden of training to the company. I'm constantly blown away that some of those people get jobs, and they somehow keep th…

Is there a good way to learn those skills at a professional level outside of a university setting? I feel like I've taught myself a sufficient amount of front end, back end, ops (Docker, IaC etc), but I'm at a loss for how to test my ability with algorithms and data structures, memory management, etc. I've picked up some books, but I don't have a good way to measure my ability or demonstrate it to employers.

I'm a self-taught web developer, and I can tell you that the skills and knowledge gap between web development and "real" software engineering is huge, enough to where I seriously consider going back to school to pick them up, even though I already make $100k+, I've reached the top of my earning potential.

If I knew a program tailored to people like me that would give me a reasonably-accredited certificate and teach me the math and theory, I'd pay perhaps $20k for it. I'd go back to college, but I really don't want the pain of all that undergrad coursework.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#64

Post by throwawayxyz709 »

trentmb wrote: post #16
pjdemers wrote: post #10

People are realizing that even though coding pays well, it's not a job for everyone. We hired 4 people out of boot camps. All had a decent level of skill (of course they did, we choose the 4 we liked out of dozens available). However after a few weeks, two of them left, saying: "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades". And they went back to their old jobs and old pay.

> "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades" Not a bootcamp grad, but I just hit my two year mark a couple weeks ago and want to blow my brains out. Writing internal web applications is the most mind numbing thing ever. It's gotten to the point where I have so much trouble keeping focused at work. The real issue is that I have no idea what field I'd pivot into.

Have you tried seeing a doctor or therapist? I have the same feelings as you and I'm giving SSRIs another go. There's a difference between hating your job without being able to cope and hating your job while being able to cope. Have you considered that you're depressed? Are you able to enjoy things and be productive outside of work or do you feel the same way you do as when you're at work?

It can be a hard road to travel and there might not be a single good answer (only multiple possible answers with varying probabilities).

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#65

Post by walshemj »

austenallred wrote: post #7

There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start. First, to say there's no skills gap is insanity. I refuse to believe anyone in the industry actually believes that - even the worst bootcamps are placing folks, they just place folks that are not well prepared and shift the burden of training to the company. I'm constantly blown away that some of those people get jobs, and they somehow keep th…

why do you seem to think that training is something the companies should avoid if at all possible?

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#67

Post by austenallred »

walshemj wrote: post #65
austenallred wrote: post #7

There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start. First, to say there's no skills gap is insanity. I refuse to believe anyone in the industry actually believes that - even the worst bootcamps are placing folks, they just place folks that are not well prepared and shift the burden of training to the company. I'm constantly blown away that some of those people get jobs, and they somehow keep th…

why do you seem to think that training is something the companies should avoid if at all possible?

It's not something they should avoid, it's just something many are not currently prepared to do.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#68

Post by hasenj »

ellius wrote: post #14
austenallred wrote: post #7

There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start. First, to say there's no skills gap is insanity. I refuse to believe anyone in the industry actually believes that - even the worst bootcamps are placing folks, they just place folks that are not well prepared and shift the burden of training to the company. I'm constantly blown away that some of those people get jobs, and they somehow keep th…

Is there a good way to learn those skills at a professional level outside of a university setting? I feel like I've taught myself a sufficient amount of front end, back end, ops (Docker, IaC etc), but I'm at a loss for how to test my ability with algorithms and data structures, memory management, etc. I've picked up some books, but I don't have a good way to measure my ability or demonstrate it to employers.

> but I'm at a loss for how to test my ability with algorithms and data structures, memory management, etc

Try to work on projects involving encoding/decoding video streams and displaying them on the screen.

Also, 3D game engines.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#69

Post by coldtea »

throwawayxyz709 wrote: post #64
trentmb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades" Not a bootcamp grad, but I just hit my two year mark a couple weeks ago and want to blow my brains out. Writing internal web applications is the most mind numbing thing ever. It's gotten to the point where I have so much trouble keeping focused at work. The real issue is that I have no idea what field I'd pivot into.

Have you tried seeing a doctor or therapist? I have the same feelings as you and I'm giving SSRIs another go. There's a difference between hating your job without being able to cope and hating your job while being able to cope. Have you considered that you're depressed? Are you able to enjoy things and be productive outside of work or do you feel the same way you do as when you're at work? It can be a hard road to tr…

>There's a difference between hating your job without being able to cope and hating your job while being able to cope.

The difference being in the latter case you've given up all hope and just keep at it?

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#70

Post by hasenj »

austenallred wrote: post #7

There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start. First, to say there's no skills gap is insanity. I refuse to believe anyone in the industry actually believes that - even the worst bootcamps are placing folks, they just place folks that are not well prepared and shift the burden of training to the company. I'm constantly blown away that some of those people get jobs, and they somehow keep th…

> There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start.

Exactly my thoughts. The whole premise if false. It conflates people coming fresh off a coding bootcamp with "competent programmers". It's not even funny.

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