Live data from Hacker News

Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

thinkgrowth.org

61–70 of 265 posts

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#61

Executives: "You should care about the mission, not the money!" (as they keep all the money to themselves)

It's fascinating how in the recruitment process, hiring managers who expect potential hires to act logically and methodically all but demand the recruit to suspend his or her logic and mental methods when considering their personal financial interests.

The dichotomy would be humorous if it weren't so sad.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#62
Siloes is a big reason good people leave; a somewhat corollary is people think that with experience at bigco and an alphabet soup of technologies they can take that to another co and impress.

Some do impress but others have limited lateral experience and so don't fit very well into any place but at prev bigco. But, but, I have five years of experience in X at bigco Y.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#63

I'd like to remind people that large companies are the only ones capable of hiring junior engineers who might not be at full productivity at day 0. This is especially true of the C++ ecosystem.

Not true. Counterexample: the last company I was with was 40ish people (total). One of our devs (out of 4) was a junior with I think less than a year of experience when he started. He was smart and worked hard. He was a solid member of the team.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#64
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Emphasize that the most important part of software development is moving fast." No, that is not the case most times. The most important part of software development is, as with any other part of the company, to maximize the value of the company. That may be speed, but if you have 1m users the most important thing may be to preserve trust, to acquire new customers, to automate existing infrastructure, etc. etc. Speed…

"Maximising company value" isn't a useful end goal you can give to anyone but the CxO team. For everyone else, it's a motherhood statement. Trotting it out as though it's some kind of engineering compass isn't helpful. To this you've appended the hackneyed conflation between "speed" and "cowboy attitude". It's a common category error, but in truth, rapid iteration is one of the enablers of high quality and is a huge…

I've found maximizing company value to be a pretty good end goal as an individual contributor (and it's definitely the thing I'm most excited about doing when I walk in the door in the morning). It's how you tell whether "fix this bug" or "implement this feature" is higher priority, or whether "do this thing now in our current system" or "experiment with this completely different system" is higher priority. You can do all of those at speed; the question is which to do. And getting it wrong dooms your company, because you're wasting effort.

In a well-functioning company, I don't need to make that decision myself, of course: I have management who has evaluated the cost of having the bug and the benefit of having the feature, or who's experienced and smart enough to determine whether doing the short-term thing now or investing in the longer-term thing will be likely to have better payoff. Because this process is there, if I trust my management, I don't have to spend-time second-guessing them (or worse, doing the research myself), and then I get to move quickly. But again, moving quickly isn't the point. It's a tool on the way to delivering value.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#65
post #6

"But the CEO never noticed that the payoff had ended for the other 95% of his company." It seems a lot of C*Os forget this after a while. For a lot of rank and file employees the stock price makes no difference.

Those awkward moments at medium-sized growing companies when the CEO gets in front of the company for an all-hands and says "The company is doing so well! Our stock price, as you have noticed, is way up!" The response being a couple of "woooo"s from the long-timers and senior execs and the rest of the room shrugging their shoulders looking at each other.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Emphasize that the most important part of software development is moving fast." No, that is not the case most times. The most important part of software development is, as with any other part of the company, to maximize the value of the company. That may be speed, but if you have 1m users the most important thing may be to preserve trust, to acquire new customers, to automate existing infrastructure, etc. etc. Speed…

"Maximising company value" isn't a useful end goal you can give to anyone but the CxO team. For everyone else, it's a motherhood statement. Trotting it out as though it's some kind of engineering compass isn't helpful. To this you've appended the hackneyed conflation between "speed" and "cowboy attitude". It's a common category error, but in truth, rapid iteration is one of the enablers of high quality and is a huge…

> Fast+incompetent = cowboy attitude, sure, but the problem there isn't the fast bit.

Exactly right. Frequently, in industry, I see people confuse the "slow" and "competent" bits. They think that just because a given change needs to get a bunch of sign-offs that the overall effect of the system requiring the sign-offs is a net benefit to the organization.

It's not. It's paralysis, and you won't notice how ungainly and slow you've become until a different org a tenth of your size manages to clone your entire feature set in a hundredth of the time it took you to develop it, all because your developers have to deal with bullshit all day long and your competitor's can just act.

A lot of people will claim that you need gatekeeping and approvals and such to maintain a rigorous standard of quality. You have to be brave enough to disregard their advice. You have to be able to take the gut-wrenching step of saying, "No. We're not doing that. I don't care if this change caused a SEV, we're not adding process. Moving fast is important!".

It's very easy to believe the nostrum of "no pain, no gain". But sometimes you have to realize that pain is just pain.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#67

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

I recommend Creativity, Inc. to every person in a management position whom I have the opportunity to recommend it to. Although Et Catmull presents a depiction of Pixar and it's growth as a largely artistic endeavor, I feel that it is applicable to those that manage engineers especially.

The ratio of students that decided to major in engineering because they were good at math in high school vs. the students who decided to major in engineering because they they wanted to make something inspiring, I feel ( and let me stress my inexperience as a current undergrad, without experience in the actual field ) is vastly favored in career growth towards those that decide to create instead of simply learn.

While there is always room and lucrativity to tie engineers on a leash and juice mathematics and logic out of them until they reach an existential crisis, there is always (ALWAYS) room within the budget to let them set out upon a path which is in tune with their not necessarily young, but foolish and hopeful beliefs.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#68
post #15

Despite the overall theme of this interaction, opening an office in the East Bay seems more employee friendly than keeping them in Palo Alto.

If the company is still succeeding, then it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable move. The company doesn't operate for the benefit of employees commutes. If they can still attract and retain talent and have a more practical work space, then great.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maximising company value" isn't a useful end goal you can give to anyone but the CxO team. For everyone else, it's a motherhood statement. Trotting it out as though it's some kind of engineering compass isn't helpful. To this you've appended the hackneyed conflation between "speed" and "cowboy attitude". It's a common category error, but in truth, rapid iteration is one of the enablers of high quality and is a huge…

> Fast+incompetent = cowboy attitude, sure, but the problem there isn't the fast bit. Exactly right. Frequently, in industry, I see people confuse the "slow" and "competent" bits. They think that just because a given change needs to get a bunch of sign-offs that the overall effect of the system requiring the sign-offs is a net benefit to the organization. It's not. It's paralysis, and you won't notice how ungainly an…

You have to be able to take the very demanding step of saying, "No. We're not doing that. I don't care if this change caused a SEV, we're not adding process. Moving fast is important!".

The moment that some minor disaster hits, which it inevitably will, whoever is in charge will find themselves no longer in charge.

I think this is one of the fatal flaws of a big company. Everyone is terrified of risk. I'm not sure it's possible to counteract this tendency unless the company was built from the ground up not to punish risky behavior (e.g. Facebook, supposedly).

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#70
post #60

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

> Emphasize that the most important part of software development is moving fast. This doesn't seem to me to be true. Can you expand on your thoughts here? I'd agree that the ability to move fast is an essential part of effective software development, but I don't think it's the most important (the most important is producing business value accurately and reliably), and I think that moving fast for the sake of moving f…

Unless you take conscious steps to remain flexible and to eliminate barriers to productivity, you're going to find your ability to "produc[e] business value" diminished because effort will get sucked into process instead, and for reasons nobody can identify. Soon enough, you'll find yourself wondering why you have so many developers, all of whom appear to be doing work, yet without getting anything done.

By default, all software development organizations slow down. I say that developer velocity is the most important goal because, without focusing on this velocity, you end up solidifying, like a cooling lava, and it becomes difficult to accomplish any of your other goals.

Post reply on HN