Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing' • Hacker News Board

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#61

Post by X86BSD » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 1:34 AM UTC

ozmodiar wrote: post #36

X86BSD wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's hillarious to me is watching the liberal snowflake safe space left foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs about a non issue, theoretical maybe, crime like Russia collusion while completely ignoring the fact the US has not just meddled in elections in other countries but overthrown leaders, assassinated people, and destroyed entire countries with force! And are doing right this minute in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan,…

Since when has the liberal left been okay with those things? In my memory they've been quite vocally opposed to them.

That's not how they vote.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#62

Post by krapp » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 1:46 AM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #19

sharemywin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then who do you trust no one? computers? corporations? religious leaders? scientists? How do you run society without trust?

Wait, what?? Where did I say anything remotely like "trust no one"? Trusting governments has worked out so well historically though. That got us many wars, untold numbers of people killed, incarcerated and/or experimented on. It got us untold numbers of people inhibited from creating wealth and a better future for themselves, so the existing elite power base could preserve itself. It got us civil asset forfeiture, th…

>Trusting governments has worked out so well historically though.

On balance, though, for most people, it actually has. Which creates a bit of a messaging problem for anarchy in the general case.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#63

Post by synicalx » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 2:09 AM UTC

Bjorkbat wrote: post #13

mrkrabo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good way of becoming weak. Your enemies will be very glad to watch you try this.

"The Americans have brought their armed forces back home, adopted sensible foreign and domestic policies, and are starting to see eye-to-eye with people whom they once found too foreign to relate to. Now is the perfect time to strike!"

Rephrase that last sentence a few different ways and you'll see the problem:

"Now is the perfect time to close the Suez Canal" "Now is the perfect time to invade South Korea" "Now is the perfect time to plunder any ship with cargo" "Now is the perfect time to take Qatar"

The reality is, America's military presence abroad is a stabilising force. Take that away and other powers will move in to fill the vacuum.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#64

Post by qb45 » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 7:50 AM UTC

placeybordeaux wrote: post #50

alexandercrohde wrote: post #3

Good. Here's how things should go: 1. First America stops being world police. 2. America plays ball with rest of world (adopts metric system, becomes a leader in climate, shares control of internet, turns concern toward to real issues like asteroids, population growth, health issues, cyber security) 3. Citizens acknowledge that war is a tool for siphoning tax money into the coffers of people with connections/governme…

Pretty wild oversimplification there. War is complex and doesn't happen for one reason. For instance Russia's involvement in Syria and Crimea is more about expanding territory and sphere of influence than funneling tax payer's money, Putin and the Russian oligarchs do that well enough already. > 6. The very concept of "superiority" and "class" becomes meaningless as we move into an era of excess due to automation. We…

> For instance Russia's involvement in Syria and Crimea is more about expanding territory and sphere of influence

For the record, these places were Russian sphere of influence before the conflicts started. Though not strictly Russian territory, indeed.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#65

Post by qb45 » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 8:16 AM UTC

ozmodiar wrote: post #36

X86BSD wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's hillarious to me is watching the liberal snowflake safe space left foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs about a non issue, theoretical maybe, crime like Russia collusion while completely ignoring the fact the US has not just meddled in elections in other countries but overthrown leaders, assassinated people, and destroyed entire countries with force! And are doing right this minute in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan,…

Since when has the liberal left been okay with those things? In my memory they've been quite vocally opposed to them.

One of them had even won the Nobel Peace Prize for vocally opposing those things :)

OTOH, I can't completely agree with X86BSD. I mean, what's the point of influencing foreign governments only to ignore suspicions that they do it to you?

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#66

Post by ryandvm » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 12:20 PM UTC

khedoros1 wrote: post #60

alexandercrohde wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard people say that before, but I don't see why I should believe it. 230 years ago America didn't exist. 150 years ago black people were property. 100 years ago women could not vote. 50 years ago nobody owned a computer. Until recently, weed was illegal. The world is changing really fast, and the rate of change is getting faster. When people argue "That could never change!" I have to wonder if they have any re…

Countries rise and fall. There is still slavery in America, and (separately) black people and women are often still disadvantaged compared to other races and to men. Weed is still illegal in the majority of states and under federal law. These are things that change and shift over time. 1+2. One way or another, America will "stop playing world police". It might do things like adopt the metric system (depending on how…

War won't go away until people stop wanting other people's stuff.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#67

Post by candiodari » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 1:03 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #19

sharemywin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then who do you trust no one? computers? corporations? religious leaders? scientists? How do you run society without trust?

Wait, what?? Where did I say anything remotely like "trust no one"? Trusting governments has worked out so well historically though. That got us many wars, untold numbers of people killed, incarcerated and/or experimented on. It got us untold numbers of people inhibited from creating wealth and a better future for themselves, so the existing elite power base could preserve itself. It got us civil asset forfeiture, th…

> Trusting governments has worked out so well historically though.

The absence of government, on the other hand, was even better. We have such incredible highlights as the dark ages, the Mongol conquest, islam's spread, ... each of which killed far more people than 40-45 including Japan and the Holocaust, when the total human population was a fraction of what it was during WWII. Collapses of government which are more recent, but on a smaller scale are currently used as laughingstocks for anarchists and ... sorry to say ... rightly so. Among such examples are Somalia, Ethiopia and Sudan as recent examples.

Without the government, can you really vouch for all 7 billion humans alive, even for basic things, such as that no group of them would commit mass murder, just because it would provide a better meal tomorrow evening ? How about all 300 million Americans ? I don't think so. How about 10 million New Yorkers ? I wouldn't take that bet.

The bet that they wouldn't band together and steal whatever they can is so ridiculous it's barely worth thinking about.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#68

Post by ivcha » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 9:26 AM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #2

and the authority of governments everywhere is crumbling. Good. potentially undermining trust in incumbent governments for the foreseeable future Even better. Trusting government is a fool's errand. But, the document says, this should not be seen as defeatism, but rather a “wakeup call”. If nothing is done to adapt to this “post-primacy” environment, the complexity and speed of world events will “increasingly defy [D…

potentially undermining trust in incumbent governments for the foreseeable future

Even better. Trusting government is a fool's errand.

wow, great... what do you suggest -- remove governments and go back to clan wars? or perhaps we should be asking the question of how did we end up with governments that cannot be trusted...