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How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

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Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#61

Post by DKnoll »

candiodari wrote: post #60
CPLX wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more serious than that even, it's a safety issue. The platforms are fairly narrow and have no railings, and they aren't designed to hold two full train loads of people at the same time. If a full train pulls up and the platform is already full people are going to end up on the tracks. I haven't seen this at Penn but I have seen the issue happen in the subway when there are train delays. When this happens the MTA…

So what you mean to say, with safety issue, is that government-provided infrastructure is so badly designed and ill-equipped to be used at the necessary scale attempts to improve matters must be stopped !

The app isn't really an improvement if it has mass adoption, you'd just move the rush for seats from the station hall to the track platform.

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#62

Post by x13 »

It's a great explanation of the need for this app, and how zavulon fixed a problem.

But organizations change how they work with customers/the public all the time, and I couldn't help but say Waaah.

Things change; tell us about the alternatives you tried to move around this obstacle.

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#64

Post by eveningcoffee »

bogomipz wrote: post #40
spyspy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever taken a rush hour train at Penn Station? The alternative (i.e. current system) is everyone congregates on the concourse staring at the platform screens, and when a new one pops up hundreds of people flood in the direction of that platform in a mad dash. It's a mess.

It is exactly this alternative(the current system) that the Amtrak/MTA/LIRR prefer for safety reasons. Amtrak which also has the same procedure at Penn states this here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/17/amtrak_s_unpe... Although it is indeed inefficient and the MTA is completely inept, the platforms for LIRR trains are very narrow, they are shared by two trains and the escalators to get up to the main f…

I think this is also dehumanizing.

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#65

Post by JackFr »

spyspy wrote: post #17
state_machine wrote: post #4

I can see why the MTA wouldn't want you telling people to go to a track before it is actually assigned -- if the train ends up on a different track, now you need to get all those people back up, off that platform an on to the new one, clogging stairs that that people who actually wanted that platform might be trying to use too. Obviously it would be nice to assign tracks earlier, so that people can head straight to t…

Have you ever taken a rush hour train at Penn Station? The alternative (i.e. current system) is everyone congregates on the concourse staring at the platform screens, and when a new one pops up hundreds of people flood in the direction of that platform in a mad dash. It's a mess.

This is absurd. After commuting for 1 year less than a year I knew which track to go to for any of the trains I ended up on. And more importantly where to stand on the platform to be at a door when the train pulled in.

The idea that somehow it's unknown or occult knowledge as to which track to go to is silly, when they announce the track for the train over the PA, they sometimes say 'This is a track change', and the few hundred people who are on the platform already have to trample back up to the concourse and then back down to the new track.

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#66

Post by mjmahone17 »

candiodari wrote: post #60
CPLX wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more serious than that even, it's a safety issue. The platforms are fairly narrow and have no railings, and they aren't designed to hold two full train loads of people at the same time. If a full train pulls up and the platform is already full people are going to end up on the tracks. I haven't seen this at Penn but I have seen the issue happen in the subway when there are train delays. When this happens the MTA…

So what you mean to say, with safety issue, is that government-provided infrastructure is so badly designed and ill-equipped to be used at the necessary scale attempts to improve matters must be stopped !

All infrastructure is a matter of trade-offs. Sure, they could have built the platforms 3 times wider, with funnels leading to the doors, and gates that open/close to prevent people from falling onto the tracks. But that would be an extreme increase in cost to build, and wouldn't lead to a significantly larger number of people able to take the train. This app doesn't improve matters: it causes an additional "tragedy of the commons" situation. By being the first one on the platform, you may get to claim your seat, at the common cost of making it harder for everyone else to get out of/on to the train.

Yes, at peak times there is congestion (just like at peak times there's highway congestion), and the existing infrastructure (built mostly before 1930) was built to be significantly safer and more efficient than existing systems. And 90 years later, it still is usually the most efficient and safest mode of transport in NYC. But given the record number of subway riders and record age of the infrastructure, it takes everyone pitching in a little to not make the situation intolerable. Part of that "pitching in" is "Don't go onto the platform before the train's riders have left".

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#67

Post by harshaw »

There is a similar issue with the MBTA commuter rail in Boston. At south station, the signage in the main waiting area and at the platform only announce the train 10 minutes before departure.

However, there are a couple of tools to get around this. For Starters, each revenue service train has a number (like 508). In a push-pull system like the MBTA the first coach in the consist is nearest to to the platform. This coach has a number like 1827. Luckily, the MBTA publishes which trainsets will be assigned to which departures. This makes it easy to know that 1827 is for train 508. All you need to do is walk out to the platform and see if 1827 is sitting there.. if so it's your train. You can get this mapping of trainset to train via a bunch of apps.

This has been further expanded upon by micro-social apps like "MBTA Rail Tracker" which has a comment section for every train. The whole thread is basically "which platform" followed by a bunch of responses and then snarkiness on why the trains are horribly late all the time.

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#68

Post by EGreg »

mustacheemperor wrote: post #55
EGreg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case screw your API, if you allow DDOS I may as well do it for the lulz. Isn't it the same approach? If you can abuse a site you will, because they opened themselves up to the public?

That's an illogical extreme. I don't think anyone thinks that, rather, the question is whether this app was an abuse of MTA's system. They claim wide distribution of the app is a hazard. Really, it's not like MTA is stopping anyone with the inclination to do this themselves. If it's as reliable as the author says, you could do it without any automation if you were patient enough. Downvoting because that kind of exagg…

Thanks for explaining the downvote. But this is not exaggerated nor a strawman. It mirrors the extreme "screw your website" reaction and investigates whether the logic for such an extreme disregard holds.

So a website allows you to "download some bytes". Yes you can do anything you want with THOSE bytes. Does this mean you should make an app to let people scrape the website in an automated way and possibly overload it?

If airlines, restaurants give something free or discounted, does that mean you can make an app to systematically let millions of people take advantage of the arbitrage?

XKCD even has a comic for exactly this situation: https://xkcd.com/1499/

I wasn't the one who said "FUCK WEBSITES". I used a nicer word and questioned the logic. Yet I get downvoted while the parent comment with expletives is upvoted.

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#69

Post by mark212 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #34

For about a year a decade and a half ago, I commuted into and out of Penn Station with my father who had been doing so since the late 70s. Not only did he know which track any of a half dozen trains that he might take would come in on but he knew where the doors would open for each of the tracks. And he wasn't the only one either. If you went down before they announced the tracks you'd see little clusters of people w…

same thing on the subway, with an extra dimension of starting on the local, switching to the express, then transferring at another station. Pretty quickly you get to know where to stand to get on the most efficient end of the train to be closest to the stairway up to the transfer platform, etc. Makes an otherwise tedious trip somewhat interesting as a puzzle.

Re: How MTA shut down my app for Penn Station commuters

#70

Post by GauntletWizard »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #64
bogomipz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is exactly this alternative(the current system) that the Amtrak/MTA/LIRR prefer for safety reasons. Amtrak which also has the same procedure at Penn states this here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/17/amtrak_s_unpe... Although it is indeed inefficient and the MTA is completely inept, the platforms for LIRR trains are very narrow, they are shared by two trains and the escalators to get up to the main f…

I think this is also dehumanizing.

Mass transit is dehumanizing. Cities are dehumanizing. A significant amount of the way that giant infrastructure works is making assumptions and rote; Turning the human problem of "how do I get here" into a mechanical process of "There are two ways to do so, X and Y, each of which follow these steps".

This is great for efficiency - that's why it's done. It's terrible for humanity. It's stagnant, it kills creativity, it leads to these incredible tragedies of the commons when so much relies upon the commons.

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