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Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

justice.gov

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Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#61

Post by elif »

ceedan wrote: post #42

Per Hobby Lobby statement: https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-set... "At no time did Hobby Lobby ever purchase items from dealers in Iraq or from anyone who indicated that they acquired items from that country." lol. Don't ask don't tell, amirite? It's funny to see HL running through the motions defending themselves on this one. Surely nobody there is stupid enough to think that we actually buy…

Logic in american political discourse is too big of an ask.

As long as there is a compelling narrative and complicit media, literally absolute bullshit can be accepted as valid discourse or even valid history.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#62

Post by Brendinooo »

knodi123 wrote: post #54
bogomipz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists. From the BBC articles; >'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the import process when it began' and >'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight, did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby…

> who said religious beliefs barred them from paying for certain kinds of contraception in their employees health care And who actually offered that contraception as part of their health care for decades, no problem, until obamacare mandated it , at which point they suddenly realized they had a deep-seated religious conviction against it.

Do you have a source for this one? I'd haven't heard this before.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#63

Post by blackguardx »

rayiner wrote: post #50
kevmo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how the "justice" system works in America. Giant crime by a party with a lot of money? DOJ will just slap you with a relatively small fine. Bag of weed? You're going to jail, buddy!

The difference is that in drug cases, there is almost always overwhelming proof that someone committed a crime. Nobody has a kilo of cocaine shoved down their waistband and doesn't know about it. In a case like this, maybe it's a "giant crime," or maybe it's just a customs violation. Unless you have proof of the entity's state of mind, it's impossible to tell the difference.

"Intent to distribute" charges get slapped on people an awful lot without much hard proof.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#64

Post by Brendinooo »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #39
gorkonsine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evangelicals here in the US aren't educated enough to know there's any Christians over there. If they are, they probably consider a handful of them getting murdered to be an acceptable price.

You ever heard of magazines like Gospel for Asia ? That's the kind of pop media that gets passed around at evangelical churches. I assure you even the poorest and least educated pay a lot of attention to the issue, maybe an inordinate amount.

https://www.i-am-n.com/ was a pretty visible thing when news of ISIS atrocities were just hitting the media.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#65

Post by elif »

Brendinooo wrote: post #51
ceedan wrote: post #42

Per Hobby Lobby statement: https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-set... "At no time did Hobby Lobby ever purchase items from dealers in Iraq or from anyone who indicated that they acquired items from that country." lol. Don't ask don't tell, amirite? It's funny to see HL running through the motions defending themselves on this one. Surely nobody there is stupid enough to think that we actually buy…

So in your mind it's just flat-out impossible that the decision-makers here didn't fully grasp the complexities of the arena they were entering into? The linked article says that the most we know for sure is that "an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby" warned the company of some things and the company ignored those things. It doesn't say who heard the warning, who called the final shots, or what…

Being realistic instead of assuming the legal scrutiny level of a judge, the burden of proof is on them here IMO.

When you spend millions of dollars on antiquities, you are at least casually interested in their provenance... Especially when you've hired an expert.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#66

Post by ceedan »

Brendinooo wrote: post #51
ceedan wrote: post #42

Per Hobby Lobby statement: https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-set... "At no time did Hobby Lobby ever purchase items from dealers in Iraq or from anyone who indicated that they acquired items from that country." lol. Don't ask don't tell, amirite? It's funny to see HL running through the motions defending themselves on this one. Surely nobody there is stupid enough to think that we actually buy…

So in your mind it's just flat-out impossible that the decision-makers here didn't fully grasp the complexities of the arena they were entering into? The linked article says that the most we know for sure is that "an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby" warned the company of some things and the company ignored those things. It doesn't say who heard the warning, who called the final shots, or what…

Are you that dense? That gullible to believe the PR from big company XYZ who had just gotten caught illegally smuggling artifacts from a warn-torn region of the world?

Did you not read the part of the article

"The acquisition of the Artifacts was fraught with red flags. For example, Hobby Lobby received conflicting information where the Artifacts had been stored prior to the inspection in the UAE. Further, when the Artifacts were presented for inspection to Hobby Lobby’s president and consultant in July 2010, they were displayed informally. In addition, Hobby Lobby representatives had not met or communicated with the dealer who purportedly owned the Artifacts, nor did they pay him for the Artifacts. Rather, following instructions from another dealer, Hobby Lobby wired payment for the Artifacts to seven personal bank accounts held in the names of other individuals."

HOBBY LOBBY WIRED PAYMENT FOR THE ARTIFACTS TO SEVEN PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNTS

LOL. THIS MUST BE HOW THE BIG BOY COLLECTORS DO IT HUH? Just hit up the western union and transfer some cash to a few different bank accounts.... of course. Nothing funny going on.

And there's more

"All of the intercepted packages bore shipping labels that falsely declared that the Artifacts’ country of origin was Turkey."

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#67

Post by Analemma_ »

humanrebar wrote: post #58
WhiteNoiz3 wrote: post #16

Anyone else reminded of Snow Crash by this?

Honestly no. Which part? The themes of Snow Crash include anarcho-corporatism, psychological hacking, and virtual reality. Which of those involves ancient artifacts, smuggling, and Christian craft stores?

L. Bob Rife used an Evangelical Christian church as a cover for his plan to spread the mind-virus that he developed from the information in ancient Sumerian tablets.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#68

Post by [deleted] »

humanrebar wrote: post #58
WhiteNoiz3 wrote: post #16

Anyone else reminded of Snow Crash by this?

Honestly no. Which part? The themes of Snow Crash include anarcho-corporatism, psychological hacking, and virtual reality. Which of those involves ancient artifacts, smuggling, and Christian craft stores?

[deleted]

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#69

Post by rabboRubble »

What boggles me in this case is that the Hobby Lobby people involved are not not already on a fast track for criminal charges.

There are cases where simply donating money intended for orphan to the wrong type of Islamic organization has led to jail time.

What more giving millions to buy black market artifacts from ISIS!

I'll try to dig up a link about the charitable donation.

Edit: Supreme Court ruling on providing support to organizations designated as terrorist organizations.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-court-idUSTRE...

This is a better article about the same case:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/21/high-court-u...

ACLUs commentary on Chilling Muslim charitable giving in the "war on terrorism funding"

https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/humanrights/blockingfaith.pd...

And here we go, this is the case I recall. Two "normal" women tried and convicted of providing terrorist support. The government made the case that, despite the intended charity to orphans, the women should have known they were funding a terrorist organization's larger efforts. The Hobby Lobby guys need to be held to the same standards as these (likely poor) women.

http://www.startribune.com/two-rochester-women-get-10-20-yea...

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#70

Post by Brendinooo »

bogomipz wrote: post #23
pboutros wrote: post #4

Saw on Twitter that someone called them the "Wahhabi Lobby". But actually, it seems ridiculous to me that this only warranted a $3m settlement. They've (almost certainly) been indirectly funding ISIS by robbing a country of its cultural artifacts. Not cool.

And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists. From the BBC articles; >'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the import process when it began' and >'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight, did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby…

So how did this go down, in your mind? The President of Hobby Lobby got his eyes on some shiny objects, then was told to make the check out to Al-Qaeda, and decided that it was worth funding terrorism to get the items he'd been lusting after?

Also, would you arrest someone who purchased an item at a yard sale that had been stolen at one point? Come to think of it, should I be grilling every yard sale proprietor to make sure that they came into possession of all of their goods legally?

Yeah, antiquities are higher stakes, but I would hope that if I purchased a pair of pants that suspiciously looked like they belonged to the neighbor, you wouldn't be so uncharitable to me in the aftermath.

Look, it's possible that someone did something maliciously. I'd like to think I'd have acted more above board in this scenario. But this thread reads like plenty of people have their blinders on today and are fishing for some kind of hypocrisy story.

"Never attribute to malice...", etc.

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